Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x269Tjm0002863 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 10:29:51 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1h1Sm1-0003nU-33 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2019 09:23:37 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1h1Sm0-0003nL-4T for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2019 09:23:36 +0000 Received: from rhcavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([2a02:2c40:0:c0::25:130]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1h1Sly-000553-6w for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2019 09:23:35 +0000 X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@kuleuven.be X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-ID: 8AA80120377.A3DC6 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Received: from icts-p-smtps-1.cc.kuleuven.be (icts-p-smtps-1e.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.33]) by rhcavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA80120377 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 10:23:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX20.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-exmbx20.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.11.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by icts-p-smtps-1.cc.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74F6740B5 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 10:23:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX27.luna.kuleuven.be (10.112.11.62) by ICTS-S-EXMBX20.luna.kuleuven.be (10.112.11.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 10:23:23 +0100 Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX27.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::291a:cc4f:6953:698a]) by ICTS-S-EXMBX27.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::291a:cc4f:6953:698a%25]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 10:23:23 +0100 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland Thread-Index: AQHU027ilSSwrz8nA06cLrxy9YeQDKX+PuGAgAAVfwY= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 09:23:23 +0000 Message-ID: <1551864202698.21772@kuleuven.be> References: <1694e92eaac.marcocadeddu@tin.it>,<100a01d4d3fb$42538990$c6fa9cb0$@DARC.de> In-Reply-To: <100a01d4d3fb$42538990$c6fa9cb0$@DARC.de> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.112.50.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I am an electronics engineer, but working at the Chemistry department of a university. So I have to deal with chemists all day long at work ... and as it seems now, on this reflector too ;-) 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [2a02:2c40:0:c0:0:0:25:130 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 55dc4c23c04335f55fa0ec2b6334816e Subject: Re: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_155186420269821772kuleuvenbe_" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --_000_155186420269821772kuleuvenbe_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am an electronics engineer, but working at the Chemistry department of a = university. So I have to deal with chemists all day long at work ... and as it seems no= w, on this reflector too ;-) 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org namens Greg Fismer Verzonden: woensdag 6 maart 2019 10:01 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: AW: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland Marco, I have studied Pharmacy, which basically is a combination of chemistry and = biology, and a little bit of other stuff. The first four semesters are almo= st entirely spent in the lab doing quantitative, qualitative and organic sy= nthetic chemistry. I particularly loved organic chemistry, and one of my as= signments was the synthesis of a kind of substance that has properties of t= ear-gas. Whenever I was a little bit careless in containing the substance t= he whole lab began to cry and I was sentenced to buying coffee for everyone= :) 73 de Greg DF2IC Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org] Im Auftrag von marcocadeddu@tin.it Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. M=E4rz 2019 16:57 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: R: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland Hello Marcin, hello Jacek! it is nice to find a couple of chemistry graduates who find also actractive= MF/LF and VLF! I'm also a graduate in chemistry :-) do we ground a special section of the = LF group? :-D anybody else here with chemistry background? 73, Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: bxi@go2.pl Data: 4-mar-2019 22.07 A: > Ogg: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland Hello Stefan! Thank you, Stefan, for your remarks and your good words. Unfortunately, the antenna was mounted in a public venue that's why we had to take it down jus= t after our tests. We wanted to see whether it is possible to work in VLF using basic equipment. Once the weather conditions are good enough on a weekend I'll send an antenna mounted to a baloon into the air. I've already done something similar working on 472kHz. https://klubnl.pl/wpr/en/index.php/2018/12/16/eksperyment-w-pasmie-630m-z-a= n tena-unoszona-za-pomoca-balonu/ Currently I'm building antenna coils on ferrite cores with high AL=3D12700. The circuit of the autotransformer has already been tested. When Jacek has a free weekend, we will be experimenting. 73! Marcin SQ2BXI -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 10:27 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland Hi Jacek, Marcin, Well done! Congratulations to a first VLF signal coming from SP that is detected over such a distance, more than 1000 km! This is truely encouragin= g and shows what could be done by MANY amateurs, if they would just give it a try! A milestone for your country, from an amateur radio view. Thanks for the details in that website. It is interesting to see that such ground loop antennas seem to work even in regions where the ground conductivity is expected to be quite high. Thanks to Paul's decode, you now have the certainty that the signal actually propagates. Well, the ground loop seems to radiate into Paul's direction and there is a lot of water on your path (between you and Paul). Also we (DL0AO and DK7FC) are closer to QRN sources in south-east Europe. This will contibute to our negative decode result here. On the other side we saw that the signal also propagates into unexpected directions, at least as long as the QRB is lower than 2000 km. It would be most welcome to see more activity from your side! And it looks like you can rise the ERP by 10 dB without much effort. Are you planning more experiments? And when? :-) The EbNaut message was transmitted during a time where phase changes are likely, because it was during the sunrise at your location. Maybe you can repeat the experiment, using 2 characters transmitted over 6 hours, starting 21 UTC for example? That would help us, here in the south, to receive your message. I will have a look at my signal recording to see the SNR for the message 'SP' later. At 75W and 300V antenna voltage you had 250 mA antenna current and, as you wrote, 1200 Ohm. If you have 500 Ohm DC resistance then i conclude that you did not series resonate the antenna. The reactive component was j1090 Ohm, so a series C of 177 nF (100+47+22 nF) would help to reduce the feed point impedance to 500 Ohm. Not sure if you could then run a higher power but at least the PA losses would be a bit lower. With some cheap 0.75mm2 CCA loudspeaker cable you could reduce the wire losses by about 90%. All this is very nice promising! Good luck and i hope to get a new chance to receive you here soon. 73, Stefan Am 03.03.2019 19:44, schrieb Jacek Lipkowski: > On Sat, 2 Mar 2019, DK7FC wrote: > >> I've tried a lot of antenna mixing but did not get better spectrum >> peaks that 10.5 dB SNR, so it is quite weak. Best decoder result was >> 'AV' at rank 70. > > The transmitted message was: SP > >> I'm waiting for your detailed description of the experiment. What >> antenna and power was used? How did you generate signal? > > A preliminary descritpion is here: > > https://klubnl.pl/wpr/en/index.php/2019/03/03/nadawcze-proby-z-dipolem > -ziemnym-w-zakresie-vlf/ > > > > Around 100W into a 500m long earth dipole, the signal was weak and we > were surprised to have Paul receive it (well, maybe not that surprised > given Paul's excellent receiver). > > > For the 8270.005Hz carrier we used a GPS generator module (i think it > might be just an uBlox GPS inside, but didn't investigate it). I think > Marcin bought it on some auction site. > > For 8270.00073Hz we used an old Neoware terminal with an uBlox neo-7M > GPS installed inside. The gps is used to provide a coarse time > reference (not the best precision because the 1PPS signal is not > used), and as a 20kHz reference signal connected to the terminal sound > card. The terminal runs a slightly modified version of Paul's ebsynth, > and some custom-written software to control the gps. This is the same > generator that i've used in my other tests. I can publish some details > in case anyone is interested. > > VY 73 > > Jacek / SQ5BPF > > --_000_155186420269821772kuleuvenbe_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am an electronics engineer, but working at the Chemistry department of= a university. 

So I have to deal with chemists all day long at work ... and as it = seems now, on this reflector too ;-)


73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T


Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org <owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> namens Greg Fismer = <DF2IC@DARC.de>
Verzonden: woensdag 6 maart 2019 10:01
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: AW: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland
 

Marco,

 

I have studied Pharmacy, which basi= cally is a combination of chemistry and biology, and a little bit of other = stuff. The first four semesters are almost entirely spent in the lab doing quantitative, qualitative and organic synthetic che= mistry. I particularly loved organic chemistry, and one of my assignments w= as the synthesis of a kind of substance that has properties of tear-gas. Wh= enever I was a little bit careless in containing the substance the whole lab began to cry and I was sentenced= to buying coffee for everyone J

 

73 de Greg DF2IC

 

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blackshee= p.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] Im Auftrag von marcocadeddu@tin.it
Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. M=E4rz 2019 16:57
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: R: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland

 

Hello Marcin, hello Jacek!

 

it is nice to find a couple of chemistry graduates w= ho find also actractive MF/LF and VLF!

I'm also a graduate in chemistry :-) do we ground a = special section of the LF group? :-D

 

anybody else here with chemistry background?

 

73, Marco IK1HSS


----Messaggio originale----
Da: bxi@go2.pl
Data: 4-mar-2019 22.07
A: <rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org>
Ogg: RE: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland


Hello Stefan!

Thank you, Stefan, for your remarks and your good words. Unfortunately, the=
antenna was mounted in a public venue that's why we had to take it down jus= t
after our tests. We wanted to see whether it is possible to work in VLF
using basic equipment. Once the weather conditions are good enough on a
weekend I'll send an antenna mounted to a baloon into the air. I've already=
done something similar working on 472kHz.
https://klubnl.pl/wpr/en/index.php/2018/= 12/16/eksperyment-w-pasmie-630m-z-an
tena-unoszona-za-pomoca-balonu/

Currently I'm building antenna coils on ferrite cores with high AL=3D12700.=
The circuit of the autotransformer has already been tested.
When Jacek has a free weekend, we will be experimenting.
73! Marcin SQ2BXI
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
<owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> On Behalf Of DK7FC
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 10:27 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: VLF: ebnaut transmission from Poland

Hi Jacek, Marcin,

Well done! Congratulations to a first VLF signal coming from SP that= is
detected over such a distance, more than 1000 km! This is truely encouragin= g
and shows what could be done by MANY amateurs, if they would just give it a=
try!
A milestone for your country, from an amateur radio view.

Thanks for the details in that website. It is interesting to see that such<= br> ground loop antennas seem to work even in regions where the ground
conductivity is expected to be quite high. Thanks to Paul's decode, you now=
have the certainty that the signal actually propagates.
Well, the ground loop seems to radiate into Paul's direction and there is a=
lot of water on your path (between you and Paul). Also we (DL0AO and DK7FC)=
are closer to QRN sources in south-east Europe. This will contibute to our<= br> negative decode result here.
On the other side we saw that the signal also propagates into unexpected directions, at least as long as the QRB is lower than 2000 km.

It would be most welcome to see more activity from your side! And it looks<= br> like you can rise the ERP by 10 dB without much effort. Are you planning more experiments? And when? :-) The EbNaut message was transmitted during a=
time where phase changes are likely, because it was during the sunrise at your location. Maybe you can repeat the experiment, using 2 characters
transmitted over 6 hours, starting 21 UTC for example? That would help us,<= br> here in the south, to receive your message.
I will have a look at my signal recording to see the SNR for the message 'SP' later.

At 75W and 300V antenna voltage you had 250 mA antenna current and, as you<= br> wrote, 1200 Ohm. If you have 500 Ohm DC resistance then i conclude that you=
did not series resonate the antenna. The reactive component was
j1090 Ohm, so a series C of  177 nF (100+47+22 nF) would help = to reduce the
feed point impedance to 500 Ohm. Not sure if you could then run a higher power but at least the PA losses would be a bit lower.

With some cheap 0.75mm2 CCA loudspeaker cable you could reduce the wire
losses by about 90%.

All this is very nice promising!

Good luck and i hope to get a new chance to receive you here soon.

73, Stefan





Am 03.03.2019 19:44, schrieb Jacek Lipkowski:
> On Sat, 2 Mar 2019, DK7FC wrote:
>
>> I've tried a lot of antenna mixing but did not get better spectrum=
>> peaks that 10.5 dB SNR, so it is quite weak. Best decoder result w= as
>> 'AV' at rank 70.
>
> The transmitted message was: SP
>
>> I'm waiting for your detailed description of the experiment. What =
>> antenna and power was used? How did you generate signal?
>
> A preliminary descritpion is here:
>
> https://klubnl.pl/wpr/en/index.php= /2019/03/03/nadawcze-proby-z-dipolem
> -ziemnym-w-zakresie-vlf/
>
>
>
> Around 100W into a 500m long earth dipole, the signal was weak and we =
> were surprised to have Paul receive it (well, maybe not that surprised=
> given Paul's excellent receiver).
>
>
> For the 8270.005Hz carrier we used a GPS generator module (i think it =
> might be just an uBlox GPS inside, but didn't investigate it). I think=
> Marcin bought it on some auction site.
>
> For 8270.00073Hz we used an old Neoware terminal with an uBlox neo-7M =
> GPS installed inside. The gps is used to provide a coarse time
> reference (not the best precision because the 1PPS signal is not
> used), and as a 20kHz reference signal connected to the terminal sound=
> card. The terminal runs a slightly modified version of Paul's ebsynth,=
> and some custom-written software to control the gps. This is the same =
> generator that i've used in my other tests. I can publish some details=
> in case anyone is interested.
>
> VY 73
>
> Jacek / SQ5BPF
>
>



--_000_155186420269821772kuleuvenbe_--