Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x0BJ0Zbe003675 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:00:41 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gi1yx-0000rQ-NY for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:56:39 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gi1yx-0000rH-A9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:56:39 +0000 Received: from rhcavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([2a02:2c40:0:c0::25:130]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1gi1yu-0003xt-Tw for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:56:38 +0000 X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@kuleuven.be X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-ID: 6206312000E.A46C1 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven Received: from icts-p-smtps-1.cc.kuleuven.be (icts-p-smtps-1e.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.33]) by rhcavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6206312000E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:56:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX19.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-exmbx19.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.11.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by icts-p-smtps-1.cc.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FBE540B5 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:56:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX27.luna.kuleuven.be (10.112.11.62) by ICTS-S-EXMBX19.luna.kuleuven.be (10.112.11.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:56:34 +0100 Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX27.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::291a:cc4f:6953:698a]) by ICTS-S-EXMBX27.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::291a:cc4f:6953:698a%25]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Fri, 11 Jan 2019 19:56:34 +0100 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: VLF: GOTA Thread-Index: AQHUp6GRAsHodGQzaUGVXrngPk+QdqWl53CAgACPegCAABv/AIAAoEcAgAALdoCAAXiFAIAAD+eAgAAs/ICAAMxXgIAArZ/e Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 18:56:34 +0000 Message-ID: <1547232987531.84921@kuleuven.be> References: <1762043626.20190104174530@gmail.com> <9410247640.20190104185544@gmail.com> <1624085399.20190106110624@gmail.com> <1288743451.20190107142430@gmail.com> <5C336344.7010308@posteo.de> <5C352132.60005@posteo.de> <966331036.24087972.1546987477866@mail.yahoo.com> <5C35A030.90307@posteo.de> <2011563744.17492551.1547024300896@mail.yahoo.com> <6DB8451D7F3D3947A5918808A59621EA3151334E@servigilant.vigilant.local> <732048151.1004617.1547061181611@mail.yahoo.com> <56342861547142038@sas1-890ba5c2334a.qloud-c.yandex.net> <150673862.26005583.1547145453262@mail.yahoo.com> ,<1905203887.26312043.1547198995998@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1905203887.26312043.1547198995998@mail.yahoo.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-GB, en-US Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.112.50.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: "long low metal structures of any kind do not make good VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are never employed. Also, they do not generate a vertically polarised signal" Low horizontal structures can generate a vertical polarized signal. Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.3 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, medium trust [2a02:2c40:0:c0:0:0:25:130 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML X-Scan-Signature: 396a95bbad9af60b2ee566edcd35b39e Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_154723298753184921kuleuvenbe_" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --_000_154723298753184921kuleuvenbe_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "long low metal structures of any kind do not make good VLF / ELF TX antenn= as, and for that reason are never employed. Also, they do not generate a ve= rtically polarised signal" Low horizontal structures can generate a vertical polarized signal. An example is the DDRR antenna. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org namens David Hine Verzonden: vrijdag 11 januari 2019 10:29 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: VLF: GOTA Hi Neil, Then only published info that I'm aware of is the ELF antenna used= by the USA to transmit ELF signals on 76 Hz to submarines. This was 'Proje= ct Sanguine'. It used about 15 miles of power cable suspended on 30 foot po= les above ground and was earthed at each end. A TX of around 5 Megawatts, about half way along this cable supplied t= he 76 Hz at a few hundred Amps. The radiated power was around 3 Watts, and = was just sufficient to travel the globe. Project Sanguine was abandoned som= e years ago, as it fell obsolete as new sophisticated comms replaced it, su= ch as satellites etc.. It was very expensive, only one way comms, and the 1= 5 mile of cable was constantly being attacked by vandals and metal thieves.= Russia still uses a similar system on 82 Hz (Zevs), and they shoot to kill= anyone tampering with their cable!!! There is an excellent Wikipedia page on Project Sanguine. Basically, it was= a very inefficient monster narrow loop. Otherwise, conventional Marconi vertical masts tuned against ground are use= d for VLF TX'ing the vertically polarised signals, at any VLF frequency up to the LW broadcasting band. >From my experience, long low metal structures of any kind do not make good = VLF / ELF TX antennas, and for that reason are never employed. Also, they do not generate a vertically polarised signal, which is very nec= essary for VLF and ELF propagation. The historic 'Beverage' type of horizon= tal wire antenna is long, but only suitable for reception (very inefficient= as a TX antenna). Vertical balloon suspended wires do work, but you must observe the maximum = height restrictions allowed in any particular location. I hope this is useful. Kind regards, David ________________________________ From: Neil To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:23 Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA This sounds interesting. Can you point at any published results to explain = what technique was used, what power was used to obtain those results, and h= ow the signal was launched? I imagine lots of people are considering the us= e of long lengths of metal infrastructure (on private land, with the expres= s permission of the landowner), so if there is a solution which is demonstr= ably better, it would save a lot of unnecessary trouble for experimenters. Do you have any numbers comparing the technique used in these experiments a= gainst those obtained from using long lengths of armco or metal fencing or = huge bridges, (putting aside any arguments about the rights and wrongs). I= t would be good to see a documented comparison to show by what margin the e= xperimental technique used is superior to using low steel structures with a= large horizontal extent. Neil On 10/01/2019 18:37, David Hine wrote: ... TX connexions to motorway guard rails, railway infrastructure, electric / gas supply utilities and fe= nces etc. are totally unnecessary for the transmitting of ELF signals. These DO NOT make good VLF / ELF TX antennas .. --_000_154723298753184921kuleuvenbe_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"long low metal structures of any kind do not make good VLF / ELF TX antennas, a= nd for that reason are never employed. Also, they do not generate a vertically polarised signal"


Low horizontal structures can generate a vertical polarized signal.

An example is the DDRR antenna.


73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T



Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org <owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> namens David Hine &= lt;evad_hine@yahoo.co.uk>
Verzonden: vrijdag 11 januari 2019 10:29
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: VLF: GOTA
 
Hi Neil, Then = only published info that I'm aware of is the ELF antenna used by the USA to= transmit ELF signals on 76 Hz to submarines. This was 'Project Sanguine'. = It used about 15 miles of power cable suspended on 30 foot poles above ground and was earthed at each 

end. A TX of a= round 5 Megawatts, about half way along this cable supplied the 76 Hz at a = few hundred Amps. The radiated power was around 3 Watts, and was just suffi= cient to travel the globe. Project Sanguine was abandoned some years ago, as it fell obsolete as new sophisticated com= ms replaced it, such as satellites etc.. It was very expensive, only one wa= y comms, and the 15 mile of cable was constantly being attacked by vandals = and metal thieves. Russia still uses a similar system on 82 Hz (Zevs), and they shoot to kill anyone tampe= ring with their cable!!! 
There is an ex= cellent Wikipedia page on Project Sanguine. Basically, it was a very ineffi= cient monster narrow loop.
Otherwise, con= ventional Marconi vertical masts tuned against ground are used for VLF TX'i= ng the vertically polarised signals, at any 

VLF frequency = up to the LW broadcasting band.
From my experi= ence, long low metal structures of any kind do not make good VLF / ELF TX a= ntennas, and for that reason are never employed.
Also, they do = not generate a vertically polarised signal, which is very necessary for VLF= and ELF propagation. The historic 'Beverage' type of horizontal wire antenna is long, but only = suitable for reception (very inefficient as a TX antenna).
Vertical balloon suspended wires do work, but you must observe the maximum height r= estrictions allowed in any particular location.
I hope this is= useful.
Kind regards, = David  

From: Neil <= neil@g4dbn.uk>
To: rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org
Sent: Thursday,= 10 January 2019, 21:23
Subject: Re: VLF: GOTA

This sounds interesting. Can you point at any published results to exp= lain what technique was used, what power was used to obtain those results, = and how the signal was launched? I imagine lots of people are considering t= he use of long lengths of metal infrastructure (on private land, with the express permission of the landow= ner), so if there is a solution which is demonstrably better, it would save= a lot of unnecessary trouble for experimenters.
Do you have any numbers comparing the technique used in these experime= nts against those obtained from using long lengths of armco or metal fencin= g or huge bridges, (putting aside any arguments about the rights and wrongs= ).  It would be good to see a documented comparison to show by what margin the experimental technique used is super= ior to using low steel structures with a large horizontal extent.
Neil
On 10/01/2019 18:37, David Hine= wrote:
... TX connexions to motorway 
<= br clear=3D"none">
g= uard rails, railway infrastructure, electric / gas supply utilities and fen= ces etc. are totally unnecessary for the transmitting of ELF 
<= br clear=3D"none">
s= ignals. 
<= br clear=3D"none">
T= hese DO NOT make good VLF / ELF TX antennas ..


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