Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dd12.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dd12.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.152]) by air-mf01.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMF013-8bcb4bbd0f90378; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:04:48 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dd12.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E82C0380000AC; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NzeHx-0000Ai-55 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:04:01 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NzeHw-0000AU-9B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:04:00 +0100 Received: from web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.123]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NzeHv-0007Ne-V3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:04:00 +0100 Received: (qmail 70031 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Apr 2010 23:03:54 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1270681434; bh=PB9At3QOBg0W8Mmu7wQ9nKPTtjFIVNM1RmJFaZmHEkU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=JU5n5zbR182k9T80op5ZrNeOaJbm3j1CDbdzKu+e2YBOJe/xraY07xTTVkfGU34hCE8jXwIW6oxT1nxhalFVYxkHqDcGbXAbOpymI6zmjoMMT0NWqH/9cCE76J5uIM6mh2B6F+wqbb8PzX/dc7dtCZkPD6b5px7cC4YcBXj0ERc= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mKIV3W2xuhfLl08PjVDMpN8ekP/G4eC7+CepcIo+706yIfNdKQvtnoLlr3XtIEF4yj8+SfaKZVDTl/b1N0FIrDN50KcSJTK0+tsyLHczA8X57EBM0vbG5ELaXaRaETKsXvM3WEHwid7Xmz9ztgQ9GiZC6K5KaNmmPtLMVbdJ9ok=; Message-ID: <15055.69446.qm@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: b2rq_VwVM1nl83RM8ZsbbrP1JUf0c8wIcba7UCnA54e5ymt EQgXEdBopeoSAtCwsY4aWWriYGAFkpOTUA0TZaj2CEyhnAvHqaMsHWrhopVH _sIB1IYGXOfyXMLWHOz1xzGbZUCqkhvxObBMRxXsufAwFL8YTuuoXp_ChkHf 5f7SFnloLwAQ4C00qtk5FezfymF9U5JFQcjY7S339C_D72ezZH4So.564pL3 bLDVvg5jXTV8iFCAGKaNqHnKe8IV4d_TqI907qaix8kcdQA-- Received: from [86.147.176.209] by web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:03:53 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/10.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:03:53 -0700 (PDT) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <000001cad6a2$66c84f50$0202a8c0@laptopcore2> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1278219389-1270681433=:69446" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d290.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40984bbd0f8d4f18 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-1278219389-1270681433=:69446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eddie I have mentioned your method of using the 74HC84 chip with two xtals in an= earlier Mail. I think I understand that way of generating the WSPR signal= but the "magic" is in the PIC program. Have you ever considered offering= programed PIC because I would like to try your method. I am guessing the= PIC just carries your call, loc and power and is not alterable with out= reprogramming the chip? Have you written your rig up anywhere? I saw the 6m experiment article but= as far as I could see it was a means of eliminating the PC and soundcard= the output being a 1500c/s tone 4 FSK phase shited. Anyway a very interesting practical solution. 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, g3zjo wrote: From: g3zjo Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 23:33 Hi Chris =C2=A0 Just a bit more for you to mull over.=20 =C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t think anyone has mentioned the MP3 approach where a 2min= WSPR data stream is recorded at audio and used to modulate the TX with su= itable start stop timing. =C2=A0 Then there is my audio WSPR system which I call the XORgan, this generates= WSPR at audio at a very stable base frequency derived from the difference= between 2 identical xtals, one pulled 1,500Hz the other modulated, using= an XOR chip. =C2=A0 Then there is Gene Marcus follow on of that idea with the tones generated= directly by an audio oscillator, its frequency being varied by WSPR code. Both of these methods need the WSPR to be coded in a PIC. =C2=A0 As I understand your application, with VCO facility there is no need for= the audio mixing you mention, just use the PIC to modulate the VCO.=20 My WSPR on 503.810kHz uses this method, no GPS clocking just some accurate= timing in the programming which has been running now for 2 years, recentl= y I have had to attack the capacitance values due to Xtal ageing, it had= gone outside the range of the trimmer. The timing thus needed correction= within 24 hours, today, now I have done the mod, I did a reset after 4 da= ys whether it needed it or not. =C2=A0 73 =C2=A0 Eddie G3ZJO =C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Osborn Sent: 07 April 2010 22:41 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner =C2=A0 Many thanks for all the contributions and suggestions. I have been reading them and trying to understand but I am no 'boffin'. Basically I have a 'decent' PC and appear to be receiving WSPR ok. My rig is home built with a DC receiver and a simple CW type TX with VCO= facility. I am not at home with PIC's or programming and was hoping someone would co= me up with an analogue solution. I know I need to do more 'reading up' but was trying the lazy-man's approa= ch. My initial thoughts were that the PC is giving out a 1500 Hz tone + / - 5= Hz. This is used to generate USB signals from an SSB TX (?) I was hoping to mix these tones with a stable frequency of 1400 Hz (say)= ending up with 100 Hz + / - 5 Hz - thence to an F-V converter - gain / level adjuste= d and thence to the TX VCO input. Ready and awaiting the brickbats. 73 Chris G3XIZ =C2=A0 From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wed, 7 April, 2010 21:41:02 Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Hi Group=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think we have been here before but this is my contribution:- =C2=A0 Do the whole thing with software WSPR - VAC - SDR software - Hardware Tayl= oe detector in reverse using a Multiplex chip. This may not be the simplest technique taking the Applications involved i.= e. writing the software. but it already exists so it is just a matter of= integrating them to make a system. The Tayloe detector exists as a kit by= Softrock. You do need however to=C2=A0amplify linearly from the detector= output up to final o/p power level.=20 =C2=A0 I use the reverse for WSPR RX on MF and LF. And have played with the TX si= de on 30m at about 1Watt O/P. =C2=A0 I can demonstrate this method if you are interested Chris, assuming=C2=A0w= atching paint drying (srri=C2=A0I mean WSPR) is the new attraction...hee.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 73 es GL petefmt t@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: M0FMT Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 20:55 Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September last= year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you might say= from the Horse Mouth)=C2=A0and he said :- =C2=A0 On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor wrote: From: Joe Taylor Subject: Re: WSPR To: "M0FMT" Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM Hi Peter, > Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the= serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo? No. > If the software doesn't have this facility why not? Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one,= that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase= 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones. The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode. With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built spec= ial-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK capa= bility in hardware.=C2=A0 Their keying is typically controlled from a=C2= =A0 microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in= ROM. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- 73, Joe, K1JT 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe wrote: From: Rik Strobbe Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23 hello Chris, Jim, group, an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say from 5MHz (f= rom a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz. That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TTL IC= . I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR aud= io signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divider ratio= . It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no real "DX= tests" so. But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the software= . 73, Rik=C2=A0 ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com] Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group, What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving WSP= R via the PIC might be a bit more difficult... But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz= and be used in place of the VCO in your TX. Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might ha= ve to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for homebrew= HF WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU =C2=A0 =C2=A0 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/10= 07:32:00 =20 --0-1278219389-1270681433=:69446 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eddie
I have mentioned your method of using the 74HC84 chip with two xtals= in an earlier Mail. I think I understand that way of generating the WSPR= signal but the "magic" is in the PIC program. Have you ever considered of= fering programed PIC because I would like to try your method. I am guessin= g the PIC just carries your call, loc and power and is not alterable with= out reprogramming the chip?
Have you written your rig up anywhere? I saw the 6m experiment articl= e but as far as I could see it was a means of eliminating the PC and sound= card the output being a 1500c/s tone 4 FSK phase shited.
Anyway a very interesting practical solution.

73 es GL petefmt=

--- On Wed, 7/4/10, g3zjo <g3zjo@npton.plus.com> wrote:

From: g3zjo <g3zjo@npton.plus.com>
Su= bject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner
To: rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 23:33

Hi Chris

 =

Just a bit more for= you to mull over.

 =

I don=E2=80=99t thin= k anyone has mentioned the MP3 approach where a 2min WSPR data stream is= recorded at audio and used to modulate the TX with suitable start stop ti= ming.

 =

Then there is my aud= io WSPR system which I call the XORgan, this generates WSPR at audio at a= very stable base frequency derived from the difference between 2 identica= l xtals, one pulled 1,500Hz the other modulated, using an XOR chip.=

 =

Then there is Gene= Marcus follow on of that idea with the tones generated directly by an aud= io oscillator, its frequency being varied by WSPR code.

Both of these method= s need the WSPR to be coded in a PIC.

 =

As I understand your= application, with VCO facility there is no need for the audio mixing you= mention, just use the PIC to modulate the VCO.

My WSPR on 503.810kH= z uses this method, no GPS clocking just some accurate timing in the progr= amming which has been running now for 2 years, recently I have had to atta= ck the capacitance values due to Xtal ageing, it had gone outside the rang= e of the trimmer. The timing thus needed correction within 24 hours, today= , now I have done the mod, I did a reset after 4 days whether it needed it= or not.

 =

73

 =

Eddie G3ZJO

 =

----= -Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org] On Behalf Of Ch= ris Osborn
Sent: 07 Apr= il 2010 22:41
To: rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner=

 

Many thanks for all the con= tributions and suggestions.
I have been reading them and trying to unde= rstand but I am no 'boffin'.

Basically I have a 'decent' PC and app= ear to be receiving WSPR ok.
My rig is home built with a DC rece= iver and a simple CW type TX with VCO facility.

I am not at home wi= th PIC's or programming and was hoping someone would come
up with an an= alogue solution.
I know I need to do more 'reading up' but was trying= the lazy-man's approach.

My initial thoughts were that the PC is= giving out a 1500 Hz tone + / - 5 Hz.
This is used to generate USB sig= nals from an SSB TX (?)
I was hoping to mix these tones with a stable= frequency of 1400 Hz (say) ending up
with 100 Hz + / - 5 Hz - thence= to an F-V converter - gain / level adjusted and thence
to the TX VCO= input.

Ready and awaiting the brickbats.

73 Chris G3XIZ

 

From: M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wed, 7 April, 2010 21:41:02
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX= ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner

Hi Group 

 

I think we have been here before but this= is my contribution:-

 

Do the whole thing with software WSPR - VAC= - SDR software - Hardware Tayloe detector in reverse using a Multiplex ch= ip.

This may not be the simplest technique taki= ng the Applications involved i.e. writing the software. but it already exi= sts so it is just a matter of integrating them to make a system. The Taylo= e detector exists as a kit by Softrock. You do need however to amplif= y linearly from the detector output up to final o/p power level.

 

I use the reverse for WSPR RX on MF and LF.= And have played with the TX side on 30m at about 1Watt O/P.=

 

I can demonstrate this method if you are in= terested Chris, assuming watching paint drying (srri I mean WSPR= ) is the new attraction...hee. 

 

73 es GL petefmt



t@yahoo.co.uk><= /I> wrote:


From: M0F= MT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX= ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: We= dnesday, 7 April, 2010, 20:55

Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very= subject September last year, This is the guy who actually wrote this appl= ication (you might say from the Horse Mouth) and he said :-

 

On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU> wrote:

From: Joe= Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSPR
To: "M0FMT" <= m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM

Hi Peter,

> Does your Software have a data= output that gives a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT= Hi Lo?

No.

> If the software doesn't have this facility= why not?

Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely= approaching one, that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce= continuous-phase 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones.

The WSP= R program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode.

With= that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built special-= purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK capabili= ty in hardware.  Their keying is typically controlled from a  mi= croprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in ROM.<= BR>    -- 73, Joe, K1JT


73 es GL petefmt



--- On W= ed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Stro= bbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrote:


From: Rik Strobbe <= ;Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB= TRX ?
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org>
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23

hello Chris, Jim, group,

an alternative to a= transverted would be a divider, let's say from 5MHz (from a HF tranceiver= ) to 500kHz.
That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a singl= e CMOS or TTL IC.
I have written a small apllication that generates the= appropriate WSPR audio signal based on the input frequency, output freque= ncy and divider ratio.
It worked fine for some local tests, but due to= lack of I did no real "DX tests" so.
But if anyone wants to try this= route I will be happy to send the software.

73, Rik  ON7YD -= OR7T

________________________________________
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<= /A> [owner-rsgb_lf_gr= oup@blacksheep.org] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com]
Verzonden: woensdag= 7 april 2010 15:09
Aan: r= sgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB= TRX ?

Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group,

What Andy suggests is fin= e for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving WSPR
via the PIC might be= a bit more difficult...

But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpco= nv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing
up-converter, which could be used= to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz and
be used in place of the VCO= in your TX.

Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might have
to sign up to see all the material= ) will reveal many designs for homebrew HF
WSPR beacons that could most= ly be adapted to 500k.

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU

 <= /DIV>

 <= /DIV>

No virus found in this incoming message.<= BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.= 1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/10 07:32:00

=20 --0-1278219389-1270681433=:69446--