Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dl05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 1A3E638000126; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1THf7P-0006pV-V7 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:16:55 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1THf7O-0006pM-LB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:16:54 +0100 Received: from smtpout4.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.68] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1THf7L-0004nj-EW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:16:53 +0100 Received: from AGB ([2.26.46.151]) by mwinf5d59 with ME id 4iGo1k00M3FiWFW03iGoiH; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:16:49 +0200 Message-ID: <13D7F74A49044DD196B2C9C3784FBEF5@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <20961.6c91afbf.3d962a97@aol.com> <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A0FB2CEE7@ICTS-S-MBX5.luna.kuleuven.be> <297E2C24-A986-4BE2-9A18-5382D87D7788@dk8kw.de> <5065A8B1.30106@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <005101cd9d83$074a0320$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> In-Reply-To: <005101cd9d83$074a0320$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:16:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Unfortunately Modern data modes are / can be frequency agile and tend to jump about within defined boundaries , so the rx end has to know where to set the rx dial to intercept them Many of the transmissions will be under the noise level , as we have seem with 'invisible ros' , Stefan's 'unglaublich langsam WSPR' will also run under the noise floor and require a defined slot to function (10 x wider than Opera though) .. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.68 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: cc679777768a8ea3be73d6029d53398e Subject: Re: LF: RE: 630m Band Plan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011E_01CD9DAD.CEA67190" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TITLE_EMPTY, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4ad35065e9f61fba X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01CD9DAD.CEA67190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately=20 Modern data modes are / can be frequency agile and tend to = jump about within defined boundaries , so the rx end has to know = where to set the rx dial to intercept them=20 Many of the transmissions will be under the noise level , as we = have seem with 'invisible ros' , Stefan's 'unglaublich langsam = WSPR' will also run under the noise floor and require a defined = slot to function (10 x wider than Opera though) ..=20 As to what new users of the band actually 'do' I think is going = to be modulated (pun) by the activities of the users now and the = leader writers in the magazines .. if 'we' project a image of = beacon's , then that will attract beacon users .. that is in = 'our' hands , one thing is sure , very few will be following = events on ya-boo or this email group=20 End of a era ... G.. From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 3:10 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: 630m Band Plan Dial frequency means nothing for those of us in CW rx mode. I prefer the = actual RF frequency to be specified and those interested can work out = the Dial frequency for SSB mode.=20 g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 1:40 PM Subject: Re: LF: RE: 630m Band Plan Hello all,=20 Maybe we have to differnciate what people do understand as "band = plan": A typical band plan leads some OMs to complain about others like "Hey = you have done QRSS on 47x.x kHz but this is the WSPR slot!" which is = nonsense for me. Here "band plan" is treated as a law where people have = to stick on. And this is what we do not need from my point of view. However, if you understand "band plan" as a useful hint for newcomers = (RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to call e.g. in CW = or where to set the "dial" for WSPR decoding, then i cannot find = something bad on it. If we start to collect our experiences why it is = useful to use that QRG for that mode, then why not. But many countries, = experiences and time should form this plan, not only the German = amateurs, just because we are the first ones who actually use the band. = That means, probably the paln will form itselfe! Furthermore this 630m band is different to the typical HF bands and = even LF. We have different NDBs inside the band which cause QRM to us = and we can cause QRM to them. This should be avoided of course. If 630m = will become a world wide allocation in some time i can hardly imagine = that the world will spend significant interest to a "B31 band plan". The = EUs NDBs are not really interesting for Japan and maybe Japan or other = IARU contries will have other noise sources on other frequencies in the = band. I can absolutely not understand why the lowest 3 kHz should be = reserved for CW. Is there a real understandable reason for this? Just = because the lower parts of any HF band is reserved for CW? Please let me = or us know! From my point of view, a real argument is: CW is (probably) the only = mode on 630m where the OM/YL does really listen into the noise. This is = mostly done with a 500Hz or maybe 250 Hz CW filter. Yes, there are 100 = Hz software based CW filters but it is no fun to listen to CW through = such a filter... So it is important to have some 100 Hz of free spectrum = arround a CW calling frequency. Think about homebrewers who use a = homemade CW filter which has not the performance of a proffessional HF = TRX filter... For 472.5 kHz this is OK but the next and only really clear CW QRG is = 476.5 kHz. So why not saying "472.5 kHz is the first calling frequency = where OMs can park their RX to listen for calling stations" and "If = 472.5 kHz is occupied by a calling station or a QSO, then QSY to 476.5"? = This would be a useful hint but not a law! About QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which is close to the = carrier of a NDB: First, there will be no CW station close to the = carrier. Second, the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence of = the NBD carrier. Third, the radio operator in an aircraft listening to = the NDB will not hear the QRSS signal because it appears at very low = frequencies on the speaker, e.g. 40 Hz. So no one is negatively affected = and we can all live in peace :-) Concentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the band is not bad i = find. Lastly the active stations will define where the center or "dial" = frequency of which mode will be. All the active stations. BTW the few = grabbers and Twente WEB SDR are actually helping to coordinate active = stations in the first time of the band.. Let's enjoy it :-) 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 28.09.2012 09:36, schrieb Holger 'Geri' DK8KW DI2BO W1KW:=20 Dear all, I agree with most who say that there is no deed at this point for = any rigid plan, my only, very preliminary suggestion would be: let us = keep the lower few kHz for regular CW, QRSS in the middle and digital = modes above, say 477 kHz. While it may be necessary to agree on certain = frequencies (such as 477 kHz "dial" for OPERA) I would keep the = remaining allocations open, each local locations is different. Also, in = the future with more activity I am sure we don't need any CW calling = frequency as we will do random contacts, same as on every other ham = band. Just my 2 =E2=82=AC-cent. Vy 73 Geri, DK8KW & DI2BO On 28.09.2012, at 07:47, Rik Strobbe = wrote: Dear Klaus, in my opinion it is far too early for a rigid band plan. At this moment only few countries are active on 472-479kHz, in = 2013 things will change. Let's wait until then to decide a. if we really need a rigid band plan b. what it (eventually) will be 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens KKorn42@aol.com = [KKorn42@aol.com] Verzonden: vrijdag 28 september 2012 0:18 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: LF: 630m Band Plan Dear All as a first proposal for discussion we present a "plan" that we = coined the "B31 Band Plan for 630m". The name derives from the DOK to = which all who shared ideas, belong. Just to state it once more: it is a first basis and proposal and = those who have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz (up to = now the slot allocated by the BuNetzA to German hams) are invited to = agree, discuss or provide better ideas. Several hams already provided specific proposals which were = incorporated. We deliberately did not detail too much, as we do not think, that = all can be fixed prior to actual demand. Please see attached gif-file. 1. A CW slot from 472kHz to 475kHz (=3D3kHz). 2. Within that, a region for beacons (472,000kHz to 472,150kHz) = followed by a region for Slow CW (472,150kHz to 472,300kHz). 3. For TA-CW DX traffic or other long-haul DX, a calling frequency = shall be established at 472,600kHz. 4. For other CW traffic, another calling frequency (if the = necessity exists) shall be established in the upper region of the CW = allocation at 474,750kHz (474,500 occupied by "SA"). 5. The frequency 472,500kHz will not be allocated for special use = (at least for the time being), as a continuous carrier is audible 24/7 = throughout DL. 6. A slot for Digital Modes from 475,0kHz to 479,0 (=3D 4kHz). 7. Today it is much too early to decide which digital modes will = be used on 630m. We propose to leave this open for the future. WSPR = (474,200kHz Dial USB), OPERA and ROS (477,000kHz DIAL USB) have = established themselves on the shown frequencies. Some other modes that = may be useful for MW but can not yet be used (e.g. JT65HF) because they = allow no suitable frequency selection. 8. Digital Modes should not overlap each other (minor relocations = may be necessary). 9. Whether or not the shown "protection zones" of e.g. +/- 50Hz = around active NDB frequencies are necessary or not, ist still being = discussed. 10. No further stipulations will be given. Walter DJ2LF, Roland DL3NDR, Klaus DJ6LB NB (DJ6LB): Upon request I provide (via separate mail) a picture = with better resolution .=20 ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01CD9DAD.CEA67190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Unfortunately
 
Modern   data  modes  are  / can be=20  frequency  agile  and   tend to  jump = about =20 within  defined  boundaries  , so  the  = rx  end=20 has to  know   where  to  set the  rx = dial =20 to  intercept them
 
Many of the  transmissions  will  be  under = the =20 noise level  , as we have  seem  with  'invisible=20 ros'  ,  Stefan's   'unglaublich langsam WSPR'  will  = also =20 run  under the  noise  floor and require a  defined=20 slot  to  function   (10 x wider than  = Opera =20 though) ..
 
As to  = what =20 new  users  of the  band actually  'do'  I = think =20 is  going  to  be  modulated  (pun) by = the =20 activities of the  users  now  and the  leader  = writers=20 in the magazines .. if 'we'  project  a  image  = of =20 beacon's  , then  that  will  attract  beacon=20 users  ..  that  is  in 'our'  hands  , = one=20 thing  is sure , very  few  will  be  = following =20 events  on  ya-boo  or  this   email  = group=20
 
End  of = a  era=20 ...
 
G..
 
 
 

Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 3:10 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: RE: 630m Band Plan

Dial frequency means nothing for those of us in = CW rx=20 mode. I prefer the actual RF frequency to be specified and those = interested can=20 work out the Dial frequency for SSB mode.
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stefan = Sch=C3=A4fer
Sent: Friday, September 28, = 2012 1:40=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: 630m Band = Plan

Hello all,

Maybe we have to differnciate what = people do=20 understand as "band plan":

A typical band plan leads some OMs = to=20 complain about others like  "Hey you have done QRSS on 47x.x kHz = but this=20 is the WSPR slot!" which is nonsense for me. Here "band plan" is = treated as a=20 law where people have to stick on. And this is what we do not = need from=20 my point of view.

However, if you understand "band plan" as a = useful=20 hint for newcomers (RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to = listen or to=20 call  e.g. in CW or where to set the "dial" for WSPR decoding, = then i=20 cannot find something bad on it. If we start to collect our = experiences why it=20 is useful to use that QRG for that mode, then why not. But many = countries,=20 experiences and time should form this plan, not only the German = amateurs, just because we are the first ones who actually use the = band. That=20 means, probably the paln will form itselfe!

Furthermore this = 630m band=20 is different to the typical HF bands and even LF. We have different = NDBs=20 inside the band which cause QRM to us and we can cause QRM to them. = This=20 should be avoided of course. If 630m will become a world wide = allocation in=20 some time i can hardly imagine that the world will spend significant = interest=20 to a "B31 band plan". The EUs NDBs are not really interesting for = Japan and=20 maybe Japan or other IARU contries will have other noise sources on = other=20 frequencies in the band.

I can absolutely not understand why = the lowest=20 3 kHz should be reserved for CW. Is there a real understandable reason = for=20 this? Just because the lower parts of any HF band is reserved for CW? = Please=20 let me or us know!
From my point of view, a real argument is: CW is = (probably) the only mode on 630m where the OM/YL does really listen = into the=20 noise. This is mostly done with a 500Hz or maybe 250 Hz CW filter. = Yes, there=20 are 100 Hz software based CW filters but it is no fun to listen to CW = through=20 such a filter... So it is important to have some 100 Hz of free = spectrum=20 arround a CW calling frequency. Think about homebrewers who use a = homemade CW=20 filter which has not the performance of a proffessional HF TRX=20 filter...
For 472.5 kHz this is OK but the next and only really = clear CW=20 QRG is 476.5 kHz. So why not saying "472.5 kHz is the first calling = frequency=20 where OMs can park their RX to listen for calling stations" and "If = 472.5 kHz=20 is occupied by a calling station or a QSO, then QSY to 476.5"? This = would be a=20 useful hint but not a law!

About QRSS/DFCW i think one can use = a=20 frequency which is close to the carrier of  a NDB: First, there = will be=20 no CW station close to the carrier. Second, the QRSS/DFCW signal is = not=20 affected by the presence of the NBD carrier. Third, the radio operator = in an=20 aircraft listening to the NDB will not hear the QRSS signal because it = appears=20 at very low frequencies on the speaker, e.g. 40 Hz. So no one is = negatively=20 affected and we can all live in peace :-)

Concentrating the = digimodes=20 on the upper part of the band is not bad i find.

Lastly the = active=20 stations will define where the center or "dial" frequency of which = mode will=20 be. All the active stations. BTW the few grabbers and Twente WEB SDR = are=20 actually helping to coordinate active stations in the first time of = the=20 band..

Let's enjoy it :-)

73, = Stefan/DK7FC



Am=20 28.09.2012 09:36, schrieb Holger 'Geri' DK8KW DI2BO W1KW:=20
Dear all,

I agree with most who say that there is no deed at this point = for any=20 rigid plan, my only, very preliminary suggestion would be: let us = keep the=20 lower few kHz for regular CW, QRSS in the middle and digital modes = above,=20 say 477 kHz. While it may be necessary to agree on certain = frequencies (such=20 as 477 kHz "dial" for OPERA) I would keep the remaining allocations = open,=20 each local locations is different. Also, in the future with more = activity I=20 am sure we don't need any CW calling frequency as we will do random=20 contacts, same as on every other ham band.

Just my 2 =E2=82=AC-cent.

Vy 73

Geri, DK8KW & DI2BO


On 28.09.2012, at 07:47, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>=20 wrote:

Dear Klaus,

 

in my opinion it=20 is far too early for a rigid band = plan.

At this moment only few countries=20 are active on 472-479kHz, in 2013 things will=20 change.

Let's wait until then to decide

a. if we really need a rigid band plan

b. what it (eventually) will be

 

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

 

Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] = namens KKorn42@aol.com=20 [KKorn42@aol.com]
Verzonden: = vrijdag=20 28 september 2012 0:18
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp= :=20 LF: 630m Band Plan

Dear All
as a first proposal for discussion we present a = "plan"=20 that we coined the "B31 Band Plan for 630m". The name derives from = the DOK=20 to which all who shared ideas, belong.
Just to state it once = more: it=20 is a first basis and proposal and those who have an interest in = operation=20 between 472kHz and 479kHz (up to now the slot allocated by the = BuNetzA to=20 German hams) are invited to agree, discuss or provide better=20 ideas.
Several hams already provided specific proposals which = were=20 incorporated.
We deliberately did not detail too much, as we do = not=20 think, that all can be fixed prior to actual demand.
 
Please see attached gif-file.
 
1. A CW slot from 472kHz to 475kHz (=3D3kHz).
2. Within = that, a=20 region for beacons (472,000kHz to 472,150kHz) followed by a region = for=20 Slow CW (472,150kHz to 472,300kHz).
3. For TA-CW DX traffic or = other=20 long-haul DX, a calling frequency shall be established at=20 472,600kHz.
4. For other CW traffic, another calling frequency = (if the=20 necessity exists) shall be established in the upper region of the = CW=20 allocation at 474,750kHz (474,500 occupied by "SA").
5. The = frequency=20 472,500kHz will not be allocated for special use (at least for the = time=20 being), as a continuous carrier is audible 24/7 throughout = DL.
6. A=20 slot for Digital Modes from 475,0kHz to 479,0 (=3D 4kHz).
7. = Today it is=20 much too early to decide which digital modes will be used on 630m. = We=20 propose to leave this open for the future. WSPR (474,200kHz Dial = USB),=20 OPERA and ROS (477,000kHz DIAL USB) have established themselves on = the=20 shown frequencies. Some other modes that may be useful for MW but = can not=20 yet be used (e.g. JT65HF) because they allow no suitable frequency = selection.
8. Digital Modes should not overlap each other = (minor=20 relocations may be necessary).
9. Whether or not the shown = "protection=20 zones" of e.g. +/- 50Hz around active NDB frequencies are = necessary or=20 not, ist still being discussed.
10. No further stipulations = will be=20 given.
 
Walter DJ2LF, Roland DL3NDR, Klaus DJ6LB
 
NB (DJ6LB): Upon request I provide (via separate mail) a = picture with=20 better resolution .
 
=
 
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