Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-md03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 84D98380000A0; Sat, 5 Jan 2013 16:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Trbj7-0007KJ-4D for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:56:25 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Trbj6-0007KA-2R for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:56:24 +0000 Received: from nm6.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.63]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Trbj2-0006iK-Sl for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:56:22 +0000 Received: from [77.238.189.230] by nm6.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 21:55:59 -0000 Received: from [212.82.108.132] by tm11.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 21:55:59 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1037.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 21:55:59 -0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=yahoo.co.uk Result=Good and Known Domain X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 365288.1389.bm@omp1037.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 63113 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2013 21:55:59 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1357422959; bh=wdBmtYE3QkLz73h2cRkf9xE8V5IJZjiioNB7MJhkXKg=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=I49KpDHabl3p4kefeQFriyU2z2+9P3e4EySkLDfB7NgnxtdPKpAG6CU1Qogu0XtrDYCfE/cy6FuwF1n3k2L6P/92sNoCQzQvdoSp21LbZmurKUCe3+MiuTdmsCTrcZ3IOdDuFthvCgVp/Vjezprgx0BFh/DnkxVtXpehlK+4Kck= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2bRNbiMNfNNENX+pAJ2o0IO4kgqXgfi477Ts7eEddeYLFTF0kNUCgrl0Ium9g1TZm04q+RbOO6mn5Ncr1/4SzhOm3SJew2AYGXjIRQjjw7o73SCo8W2ZC0J5U5Z6F0RVwB40QJasl2wF2oBfa4FfW7vMncmL5xufQYy1HWs8oUI=; X-YMail-OSG: sOQYsZcVM1mV9aNf6SF6v7diR9v1daXfqGfnWlQPFWDTrkh 4a4Tg9dDiJpN6plN6c.TYJM7KGfBvUZ2MmhyT6AgR.ek1kcFDHJOR6UdsHn4 87tFnzkr7eFjYR9Q8WmMloeP1YDNe5TYBXzaW6jugAxyWKMN1kL7gTDkMghr vhdqINiUIuJAdC1Ie21.BxBh3BXzRHFbg3TSc.aOvWWHkbpMDcuXQ4z6e8Wx 6nQJQJ4EblPlmjQENVHAPhUhQLvVi9CizjxTqtDCGXCrAWxpju6q4zPCKdhS 9hhasTobLhDXfFiPNUezHqIejlKbAGhMiHOq9extFXvaZdfScoUaHDMtgg4Q C4S8KW6hvJKb8QkJRdnTkbUb2O2aGEFVkxC3.itM1ECJde5rcmjlqEmgNN9v XCOJeSRJ9KA2rkkEKXNACKSdro7.LkuSldp0bPKU1nDp8VPeS9P0d5QW1H5Y M4hzCMe2MEPvt.ZxLLIlpvGjPM2KH6neQqrwfP2m7gEI0EEuhvxjzNCj5.We HesQaJ7DeQewFtWbhi_NDxpwjEtRyghY2cxI0v51O6nX18ETW2AED_QhTveK qLA0HSsZJG6.T8e.VAuB4fn6X4lWRSD1w01XkyWvWDu8_.qnAe4nQOWOL_PW ntJFGJ3uKHz4Kcem4rgZBm93qXaNZALMrEcDwOjaQ8OL3NR.fuU727P0NB4N G0YrVqnJRgb8V85DCz5rpdl1xfD10lvfxjXpfFAuTwmXh.sCcjNuagR3r8dO yRiKbH0lD1YsxPanpptE- Received: from [81.97.191.183] by web132505.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:55:59 GMT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,QU0gb24gNDcyIEtIegoKVGhlcmUgaGFzIGJlZW4gc29tZSBlbW90aXZlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYWJvdXQgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBBTSBvbiB0aGUgNDcyIGtIeiBiYW5kLgoKSW4gdGhlIGZpcnN0IGluc3RhbmNlIEkgbXVzdCBhZG1pdCB0byBoYXZpbmcgdXNlZCBBTSBvbiB0aGF0IGJhbmQgZm9yIGxvY2FsIFFTTydzIGFuZCBmb3IgdGVzdCB0cmFuc21pc3Npb25zLgoKSSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gcnVubmluZyA1IHdhdHRzIG9mIFJGIGludG8gbXkgaW52ZXJ0ZWQgJ0wnIGFlcmlhbDogbGVuZ3RoIDQzbSwgaGVpZ2h0IDEBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.129.483 References: <28CB8EF648E7418BB5C2D4802F72C23C@IBM7FFA209F07C> <50E85BC5.17940.19178EA@mike.dennison.ntlworld.com> <50E85F3B.8451.19EFE76@mike.dennison.ntlworld.com> <1357411601.32629.YahooMailNeo@web133202.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1357422959.38708.YahooMailNeo@web132505.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 21:55:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Osborn To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: AM on 472 KHz There has been some emotive discussion about the use of AM on the 472 kHz band. In the first instance I must admit to having used AM on that band for local QSO's and for test transmissions. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [77.238.189.63 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (g3xiz[at]yahoo.co.uk) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: eec106d36eb876515d296e51093c048c Subject: Re: LF: AM on 472kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1344357977-15073829-1357422959=:38708" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-md03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d605750e8a1c53519 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --1344357977-15073829-1357422959=:38708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AM on 472 KHz=0A=0AThere has been some emotive discussion about the use of = AM on the 472 kHz band.=0A=0AIn the first instance I must admit to having u= sed AM on that band for local QSO's and for test transmissions.=0A=0AI have= been running 5 watts of RF into my inverted 'L' aerial: length 43m, height= 10m =0AAssuming that my field strength is not dissimilar to the measuremen= ts I made on 502 kHz then my ERP was in the order of 50 mW.=0AThe total sid= eband power with 100% modulated signal would be 25 mW - I run at only 50% m= odulation.=0A=0AFor several consecutive evenings I have put out 'test' tran= smissions on 475 kHz giving my station call sign and locator and asking for= signal reports.=0AApart from a select few local stations who were specific= ally listening the only other station having reported hearing me was G3XDV,= some 20 miles distant.=0A=0AThe NOV does not stipulate that AM is not perm= itted in the MF band and of course the only QRG suitable must necessarily b= e mid-band.=0A=0AI find it inconceivable that with such=A0 low radiated pow= er levels any amateur could cause interference to a commercial transmission= .=0AIn that unlikely eventuality then the offending station would be identi= fied and shut down.=0A=0ARegarding interference to other amateur users on t= he band:=0A=0AHaving been one of the most active amateurs on 501-504 kHz I = am aware of just how difficult it is to even 'hear' many stations on MF.=0A= Furthermore no amateur worthy of the name would wish to cause QRM to his fe= llow users.=0A=0AWhat then is the objection to the use of=A0 low power AM o= n MF ?=0A=0AI shall of course and as always adhere to my license conditions= and official "gentlemen's agreements" regarding band plans.=0A=0A73=0A=0AC= hris G3XIZ=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Roger La= pthorn =0ATo: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" =0ASent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 19:45=0ASubjec= t: Re: LF: AM on 472kHz=0A =0A=0APete,=0A=0AHonestly, is this helpful? =0A= =0AI have a lot of respect for Mike and others like him, and this sort of a= ttitude is totally uncalled for.=0A=0A73s=0ARoger G3XBM=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0AOn 5 January 2013 18:46, M0FMT wrote:=0A=0AHi Mike= =0A>=A0=0A>We know the RSGB owns the spectrum and want to control every iss= ue to do with it like they messed up VHF particularly 4m with their policem= en making life for anyone without the =A35000 pound rig advertised in the R= ADCOM not welcome if your centre frequency was not with a few cycles on the= channel.=0A>=A0=0A>Your e-mail to=A0me a while ago about my paltry 50watts= on 136, =A0but I never complained about your 1000watts that flattened sign= als I wanted to listen too on the band. So why do the pigeon whole brigade,= with nice neat lists that have have entry =A0numbers, of things that can b= e done and can't be done the policeman's charter that makes other peoples l= ife a misery with "I'm alright jack" attitude and limits experimentation. T= hese may not be of the PhD variety but are of the self training variety whi= ch is the Amateur radio licence variety.=0A>=A0=0A>I don't give a toss abou= t the RSGB 's rules and I will use the spectrum within sensible limits how = I want and in line with what is in my licence.=0A>=A0=0A>You are an RSGB po= liceman just like the crowd on VHF! clagging the bands with repeaters and a= ll sorts of junk and have the cheek to complain when a real=A0radio amateur= wants to do some off the wall tests that with in the acres of empty spectr= um=A0 on VHF people who you never hear in qso suddenly come up and say you = can't do that here it's what your numbered lists policies create.=0A>=A0=0A= >=A0And now you are doing it on 472/9. Sorry but its bonkers you are=A0crea= ting clones out of radio ops who you don't want to trust with the spectrum = but its not your spectrum....... and in any case things have changed in the= world and I don't think people will stand for Diktat as they might have do= ne in the passed.=0A>=A0=0A>So long as us amateur stay inside the band limi= ts and our EIRPs are sensible that is all authority is expecting us to do a= nd what else we do I don't think they care about provided its not mischievo= us. Also my guess is they will tolerate the odd transgression without comme= nt unless it is taking the Mickey out of our contract (the licence).=0A>=A0= =0A>I would say cool the Captain Blimp approach and rub along with things a= nd they may not turn out to be as bad as you think. Alternatively some of u= s who are fed up with lists with numbers will migrate out of amateur bands = and do our own thing like quite a few are doing, ever listened at the ends = of 80m 40m 20m etc there's a parallel universe of amateurs, even though get= ting a licence is a doddle these days.... why?=0A>=A0=0A>Just get real and = rub along with what people want to do, you will hardly notice a bit of AM, = like the RSGB call sign isn't it GB3FUN?=0A>=A0=0A>And if my electric bill = could stand it I would probably run a KW like you using an old=A0Decca comm= ercial TX with its whiskers ever looked at an SDR waterfall? My 5watts tube= tx a real threat?=0A>=A0=0A>Mike I won't apologies for the forgoing but I = don't want to fall out with anyone=A0however it cannot be a one sided argum= ent and Diktat and toys out the pram is not the way to go, an arm round the= shoulder does more than any amount of "Laws" and lets face it no one will = be hurt (unless you put you fingers in that KW PSU you use on 136?).=0A>=A0= =0A>Best regards 73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX=0A>=0A>From: Mike Dennis= on =0A>>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A>>S= ent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 17:13=0A>>=0A>>Subject: LF: AM on 472kHz=0A>= > =0A>>=0A>>Making a complete mockery of any attempt to persuade users of = =0A>>different modes to coexist responsibly, an AM QSO is now going on in = =0A>>the middle of the band!=0A>>=0A>>I give up!=0A>>=0A>>Mike, G3XDV=0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=A0=0A=0A=0A-- =0A=A0http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/=0Ahttp:/= /www.g3xbm.co.uk=0Ahttps://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/=0Ahttp://qss2.blo= gspot.com/ --1344357977-15073829-1357422959=:38708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
AM on 472 KHz

There has b= een some emotive discussion about the use of AM on the 472 kHz band.
In the first instance I must admit to having used AM on that band for loca= l QSO's and for test transmissions.

I have been running 5 watts of R= F into my inverted 'L' aerial: length 43m, height 10m
Assuming that my = field strength is not dissimilar to the measurements I made on 502 kHz then= my ERP was in the order of 50 mW.
The total sideband power with 100% mo= dulated signal would be 25 mW - I run at only 50% modulation.

For se= veral consecutive evenings I have put out 'test' transmissions on 475 kHz g= iving my station call sign and locator and asking for signal reports.
Ap= art from a select few local stations who were specifically listening the on= ly other station having reported hearing me was G3XDV, some 20 miles distant.

The NOV does not stipulate that AM is not permitted in the= MF band and of course the only QRG suitable must necessarily be mid-band.<= br>
I find it inconceivable that with such  low radiated power leve= ls any amateur could cause interference to a commercial transmission.
In= that unlikely eventuality then the offending station would be identified a= nd shut down.

Regarding interference to other amateur users on the b= and:

Having been one of the most active amateurs on 501-504 kHz I am= aware of just how difficult it is to even 'hear' many stations on MF.
F= urthermore no amateur worthy of the name would wish to cause QRM to his fel= low users.

What then is the objection to the use of  low power = AM on MF ?

I shall of course and as always adhere to my license cond= itions and official "gentlemen's agreements" regarding band plans.

7= 3

Chris G3XIZ


=20
From: Roger Laptho= rn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
Sent: Satur= day, 5 January 2013, 19:45
Subjec= t: Re: LF: AM on 472kHz

Pete,

Honestly, is thi= s helpful?

I have a lot of respect for Mike and others like him, an= d this sort of attitude is totally uncalled for.

73s
= Roger G3XBM
=0A




On 5 Janua= ry 2013 18:46, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
=0A
Hi Mike
 <= /div>=0A
We know the RSGB owns the spectrum and want to control e= very issue to do with it like they messed up VHF particularly 4m with their policemen making life for anyone without the =A3= 5000 pound rig advertised in the RADCOM not welcome if your centre frequenc= y was not with a few cycles on the channel.
=0A
 
Your e-mail to me a while ago about my paltry= 50watts on 136,  but I never complained about your 1000watts that fla= ttened signals I wanted to listen too on the band. So why do the pigeon who= le brigade, with nice neat lists that have have entry  numbers, of thi= ngs that can be done and can't be done the policeman's charter that=0A makes other peoples life a misery with "I'm alright j= ack" attitude and limits experimentation. These may not be of the PhD variety but are of the self training variety which is = the Amateur radio licence variety.
=0A
 <= /div>
I don't give a toss about the RSGB 's rules and I will use = the spectrum within sensible limits how I want and in line with what is in = my licence.
 
=0A
You are= an RSGB policeman just like the crowd on VHF! clagging the bands with repe= aters and all sorts of junk and have the cheek to complain when a real = ;radio amateur wants to do some off the wall tests that with in the acres o= f empty spectrum  on VHF people who you never hear in qso suddenly com= e up and say you can't do that here it's what your numbered lists policies = create.
=0A
 
 And n= ow you=0A are doing it on 472/9. Sorry but its bonkers you are creatin= g clones out of radio ops who you don't want to trust with the spectrum but= its not your spectrum....... and in any case things have changed in the wo= rld and I don't think people will stand for Diktat as they might have done = in the passed.
=0A
 
So l= ong as us amateur stay inside the band limits and our EIRPs are sensible th= at is all authority is expecting us to do and what else<= /span> we do I don't think they care about provided its not mischievous. Al= so my guess is they will tolerate the odd transgression without comment unl= ess it is taking the Mickey out of our contract (the licence).
= =0A
 
I would say cool the Captain Bl= imp approach and rub along with things and they may not turn out to be as b= ad as you think. Alternatively some = of us who are fed up with lists with numbers will migrate out of amateur ba= nds and do our own thing like quite a few are doing, ever listened at the e= nds of 80m 40m 20m etc there's a parallel universe of amateurs, even though getting a licence is a doddle these= days.... why?
=0A
 
Just= get real and rub along with what people want to do, you will hardly notice= a bit of AM, like the RSGB call sign isn't it GB3FUN?
 
And if my electric bill could stand it I would probably run a KW like you using an old = ;Decca commercial TX with its whiskers ever looked at an SDR <= span>waterfall? My 5watts tube tx a real=0A threat?
 
Mike I won't = apologies for the forgoing but I don't want to fall out with = anyone however it cannot be a one sided argument and Diktat and toys o= ut the pram is not the way to go, an arm round the shoulder does more than = any amount of "Laws" and lets face it no one will be hurt (unless you put y= ou fingers in that KW PSU you use on 136?).
=0A
 
Best regards 73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX
=0A
=0A
F= rom: Mike Dennison <mike.dennison@ntlworld.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
=0A Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 17:13

Subject:= LF: AM on 472kHz

=0AMaking a complete mockery of any attempt to persuade users of different modes to coexist responsibly, an AM QSO is now going on in
t= he middle of the band!

I give up!

Mike, G3XDV



=  
=0A



--
 http://g3xbm-qrp.blog= spot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
=0Ahttps://sites.goog= le.com/site/sub9khz/
http://qss2.blogspot.com/

=0A
=0A=


--1344357977-15073829-1357422959=:38708--