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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 22:42:21 +0000 (UTC)
From: Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
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 Content preview:  If you want to use SpecLab as a frequency doubler, you could
    simply employ the "amplitude demodulator" e.g. in the L1-L2 blackbox. With
    high enough output bandwidth (> 5000 Hz), it acts as a full-wa [...] 
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Subject: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question
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If you want to use SpecLab as a frequency doubler, you could simply employ =
the "amplitude demodulator"=C2=A0e.g. in the L1-L2 blackbox.=C2=A0With high=
 enough output bandwidth (> 5000 Hz), it acts as a full-wave rectifier, pro=
ducing=C2=A0DC, 2xf and=C2=A0higher even-numbered harmonics. These can then=
 be filtered by a bandpass filter around 2xf, and=C2=A0also=C2=A0frequency =
shifted=C2=A0before or after doubling.

BTW I have=C2=A0employed this scheme to frequency-double=C2=A0the MSK-signa=
l=C2=A0from NWC, producing a pair of spectral lines whose=C2=A0absolute=C2=
=A0phase is=C2=A0plotted on the DL0AO VLF-grabber.

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Di, 5. Feb. 2019 21:06
Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question

Hell Markus, LF,

While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, youknow) =
i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR couldbe made:
Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 200 mHz maybe, let'ssay 1=
500 Hz. Then, would it be possible to use a SpecLab instance andmeasure the=
 frequency arround 1500+-3 Hz which has the highest signallevel? This way o=
ne could identify which of the 4 FSK frequencies isgetting out of the WSPR =
software in that moment. Then, could we say,using the conditional actions, =
if frequency is higher than x and lowerthan y, that this is identified as '=
2' (1, 2, 3, 4). And then, if '2'is identified, use the signal generator an=
d transmit on anotherfrequency, which is then at twice the shift frequency =
from the center.All in all, just 4 lines in the conditional actions window =
(maybeadding a minimum signal level is required also to give a 'true').
So, determine the input frequency and generate another one using theinterna=
l signal generator?
This must be a fast running spectrogram / FFT, to be fast enough but itshou=
ld be no problem. There must be no significant drift of the TXthough but th=
at could be possible too.
I expressed myselfe a bit difficult but i guess you know what i mean.But i =
try to make it a bot more clear (for me too ;-) ):
>From the file 'wsptones.txt' i got the information that=20
0=3D 1497.803 Hz
1=3D 1499.268 Hz
2=3D 1500.732 Hz
3=3D 1502.197 Hz
The difference between 2 steps is 1.465 Hz, obviously.
So, if the detected frequency from the input is higher than 1500 Hz andlowe=
r than 1501.465 Hz, then this is '2'. And then, the signalgenerator must pr=
oduce a frequency of 1501.465 Hz instead, which is '2'with twice the offset=
 from the center frequency. And so on...
If this output signal is upconvertred by 272 kHz and then sum isdivided by =
2, we should come out at the normal WSPR spacing at 137.5kHz.
This would then also work without the slow WSPR tool and should alsowork fo=
r WSPR-15...

73, Stefan



Am 04.02.2019 22:08, schrieb Markus Vester:
  HiStefan, Chris,
=20
in principle yes=E2=80=A6 (R. Eriwan)
=20
The old tools from 2012 are here=C2=A0
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip=20
But they used a homemade=C2=A016-bit-utility "waitraster" for timing, which=
is no longer supported by 64-bit Win-7 and Win 10. This=C2=A0can be replace=
dby simple DOS commands, which=C2=A0has so far been implemented for=C2=A0re=
ceivingWSPR-15
https://klubnl.pl/rsgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg0031=
8.html
but not yet for transmitting.=C2=A0So a little more work=C2=A0will be neede=
d.
=20
On the other hand, I'm asking myself=C2=A0why=C2=A0so many people=C2=A0stil=
l insiston=C2=A0having=C2=A0dividers before their PA's.=C2=A0It only makes =
life moredifficult, and=C2=A0undermines coherent=C2=A0EbNaut or Opera signa=
ltransmissions.=C2=A0
=20
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
=20
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 4. Feb. 2019 21:11
Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question
=20
  ...i checked some files from the slow_WSPR tool. Ithink i would be able=
=20
to solve the problem. Maybe Markus likes to confirm that this couldwork=20
(getting a factor 2 in the frequency shift)?
Chris, it would then be worth to try the normal tool first.
=20
73, Stefan
=20
Am 04.02.2019 20:25, schrieb DK7FC:
> Hello Chris,
>
> For a clever person it is very easy :-)
> It will depend on which way you want to generate WSPR.
> Here, for example, i have a Raspi which generates my WSPR (2) forMF.=20
> I modified the c source code so that the frequency is 4 timeshigher=20
> and the frequency shift is 4 times higher too. In my PA, probablylike=20
> in yours, there is a frequency divider using CD4013 ICs which=20
> reproduce the desired frequency and frequency shift. Of coursethis=20
> can be done with a factor 2 too.
> For Windows solutions, there is DF6NMs tool for slow WSPR whichworks=20
> very reliable here, for WSPR-2 and WSPR-15. I'm sure this can be=20
> modified for twice the frequency shift but then you will need an=20
> upconverter to convert it to LF or MF...
>
> 73, Stefan
>
> Am 04.02.2019 13:21, schrieb Chris Wilson:
>>
>> Hello=C2=A0 LF,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A=C2=A0 naive=C2=A0 question=C2=A0 re=C2=A0 WSPR15=C2=A0 pl=
ease?=C2=A0 Assuming thesource code is
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 available=C2=A0 how=C2=A0 hard=C2=A0 would=C2=A0 it=C2=A0 b=
e=C2=A0 for=C2=A0 a=C2=A0 clever personto add X2
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality to it? Thanks.
>>
>
=20
  =20

------=_Part_3607993_1701696998.1549406541236
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
 font-size: 10pt;" abp=3D"151">If you want to use SpecLab as a frequency do=
ubler, you could simply employ the "amplitude demodulator"&nbsp;e.g. in the=
 L1-L2 blackbox.&nbsp;With high enough output bandwidth (&gt; 5000 Hz), it =
acts as a full-wave rectifier, producing&nbsp;DC, 2xf and&nbsp;higher even-=
numbered harmonics. These can then be filtered by a bandpass filter around =
2xf, and&nbsp;also&nbsp;frequency shifted&nbsp;before or after doubling.<br=
><br>BTW I have&nbsp;employed this scheme to frequency-double&nbsp;the MSK-=
signal&nbsp;from NWC, producing a pair of spectral lines whose&nbsp;absolut=
e&nbsp;phase is&nbsp;plotted on the DL0AO VLF-grabber.<br abp=3D"152"><br>B=
est 73,<br>Markus (DF6NM)<br abp=3D"153"><br abp=3D"154">-----Urspr=C3=BCng=
liche Mitteilung-----<br abp=3D"155">Von: DK7FC &lt;selberdenken@posteo.de&=
gt;<br abp=3D"156">An: rsgb_lf_group &lt;rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org&gt;<b=
r abp=3D"157">Verschickt: Di, 5. Feb. 2019 21:06<br abp=3D"158">Betreff: Re=
: LF: Naive WSPR15 question<br abp=3D"159"><br abp=3D"160"></div><div id=3D=
"yiv3605804817" abp=3D"161"><div abp=3D"162">
Hell Markus, LF,<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"163">
<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"164">
While walking to the tree today (which takes at about 30 minutes, you
know) i had a thought/idea how the double shift keying for WSPR could
be made:<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"165">
Let's assume the frequency (audio) is known to +- 200 mHz maybe, let's
say 1500 Hz. Then, would it be possible to use a SpecLab instance and
measure the frequency arround 1500+-3 Hz which has the highest signal
level? This way one could identify which of the 4 FSK frequencies is
getting out of the WSPR software in that moment. Then, could we say,
using the conditional actions, if frequency is higher than x and lower
than y, that this is identified as '2' (1, 2, 3, 4). And then, if '2'
is identified, use the signal generator and transmit on another
frequency, which is then at twice the shift frequency from the center.
All in all, just 4 lines in the conditional actions window (maybe
adding a minimum signal level is required also to give a 'true').<br clear=
=3D"none" abp=3D"166">
So, determine the input frequency and generate another one using the
internal signal generator?<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"167">
This must be a fast running spectrogram / FFT, to be fast enough but it
should be no problem. There must be no significant drift of the TX
though but that could be possible too.<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"168">
I expressed myselfe a bit difficult but i guess you know what i mean.
But i try to make it a bot more clear (for me too ;-) ):<br clear=3D"none" =
abp=3D"169">
>From the file 'wsptones.txt' i got the information that <br clear=3D"none" =
abp=3D"170">
0=3D 1497.803 Hz<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"171">
1=3D 1499.268 Hz<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"172">
2=3D 1500.732 Hz<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"173">
3=3D 1502.197 Hz<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"174">
The difference between 2 steps is 1.465 Hz, obviously.<br clear=3D"none" ab=
p=3D"175">
So, if the detected frequency from the input is higher than 1500 Hz and
lower than 1501.465 Hz, then this is '2'. And then, the signal
generator must produce a frequency of 1501.465 Hz instead, which is '2'
with twice the offset from the center frequency. And so on...<br clear=3D"n=
one" abp=3D"176">
If this output signal is upconvertred by 272 kHz and then sum is
divided by 2, we should come out at the normal WSPR spacing at 137.5
kHz.<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"177">
This would then also work without the slow WSPR tool and should also
work for WSPR-15...<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"178">
<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"179">
73, Stefan<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"180">
<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"181">
<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"182">
<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"183">
Am 04.02.2019 22:08, schrieb Markus Vester:
<div class=3D"yiv3605804817yqt1216174375" id=3D"yiv3605804817yqt32627" abp=
=3D"184"><blockquote abp=3D"185" type=3D"cite">
  <div style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 10pt;" abp=3D"186">
  <div style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 10pt;" abp=3D"187">Hi
Stefan, Chris,<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"188">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"189">
in principle yes=E2=80=A6 (R. Eriwan)<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"190">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"191">
The old tools from 2012 are here&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"192">
<a class=3D"yiv3605804817moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://df6nm.bplace=
d.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shap=
e=3D"rect" abp=3D"193">http://df6nm.bplaced.net/wspr/slowWSPR.zip</a> <br c=
lear=3D"none" abp=3D"194">
But they used a homemade&nbsp;16-bit-utility "waitraster" for timing, which
is no longer supported by 64-bit Win-7 and Win 10. This&nbsp;can be replace=
d
by simple DOS commands, which&nbsp;has so far been implemented for&nbsp;rec=
eiving
WSPR-15<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"195">
<a class=3D"yiv3605804817moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://klubnl.pl/r=
sgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg00318.html" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" abp=3D"196">https://klubn=
l.pl/rsgb_lf_group-archives/html/rsgb_lf_group/2018-11/msg00318.html</a><br=
 clear=3D"none" abp=3D"197">
but not yet for transmitting.&nbsp;So a little more work&nbsp;will be neede=
d.<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"198">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"199">
On the other hand, I'm asking myself&nbsp;why&nbsp;so many people&nbsp;stil=
l insist
on&nbsp;having&nbsp;dividers before their PA's.&nbsp;It only makes life mor=
e
difficult, and&nbsp;undermines coherent&nbsp;EbNaut or Opera signal
transmissions.&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"200">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"201">
Best 73,<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"202">
Markus (DF6NM)<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"203">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"204">
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"205">
Von: DK7FC <a class=3D"yiv3605804817moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:s=
elberdenken@posteo.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" abp=3D"206" ymailto=3D"mailto:selberdenken@posteo.de">&lt;selberd=
enken@posteo.de&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"207">
An: rsgb_lf_group <a class=3D"yiv3605804817moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"m=
ailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noref=
errer" shape=3D"rect" abp=3D"208" ymailto=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blackshee=
p.org">&lt;rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org&gt;</a><br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"20=
9">
Verschickt: Mo, 4. Feb. 2019 21:11<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"210">
Betreff: Re: LF: Naive WSPR15 question<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"211">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"212">
  </div>
  <div dir=3D"ltr" abp=3D"213">...i checked some files from the slow_WSPR t=
ool. I
think i would be able <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"214">
to solve the problem. Maybe Markus likes to confirm that this could
work <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"215">
(getting a factor 2 in the frequency shift)?<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"216">
Chris, it would then be worth to try the normal tool first.<br clear=3D"non=
e" abp=3D"217">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"218">
73, Stefan<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"219">
  <div class=3D"yiv3605804817yqt7610097017" id=3D"yiv3605804817yqtfd93454" =
abp=3D"220"><br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"221">
Am 04.02.2019 20:25, schrieb DK7FC:<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"222">
&gt; Hello Chris,<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"223">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"224">
&gt; For a clever person it is very easy :-)<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"225">
&gt; It will depend on which way you want to generate WSPR.<br clear=3D"non=
e" abp=3D"226">
&gt; Here, for example, i have a Raspi which generates my WSPR (2) for
MF. <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"227">
&gt; I modified the c source code so that the frequency is 4 times
higher <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"228">
&gt; and the frequency shift is 4 times higher too. In my PA, probably
like <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"229">
&gt; in yours, there is a frequency divider using CD4013 ICs which <br clea=
r=3D"none" abp=3D"230">
&gt; reproduce the desired frequency and frequency shift. Of course
this <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"231">
&gt; can be done with a factor 2 too.<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"232">
&gt; For Windows solutions, there is DF6NMs tool for slow WSPR which
works <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"233">
&gt; very reliable here, for WSPR-2 and WSPR-15. I'm sure this can be <br c=
lear=3D"none" abp=3D"234">
&gt; modified for twice the frequency shift but then you will need an <br c=
lear=3D"none" abp=3D"235">
&gt; upconverter to convert it to LF or MF...<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"236"=
>
&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"237">
&gt; 73, Stefan<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"238">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"239">
&gt; Am 04.02.2019 13:21, schrieb Chris Wilson:<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"24=
0">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"241">
&gt;&gt; Hello&nbsp; LF,<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"242">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"243">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; A&nbsp; naive&nbsp; question&nbsp; re&nbsp; WSPR15&nb=
sp; please?&nbsp; Assuming the
source code is<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"244">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; available&nbsp; how&nbsp; hard&nbsp; would&nbsp; it&n=
bsp; be&nbsp; for&nbsp; a&nbsp; clever person
to add X2<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"245">
&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; functionality to it? Thanks.<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D=
"246">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"247">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"248">
  <br clear=3D"none" abp=3D"249">
  </div>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote></div>
</div></div></div>
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