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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:49:27 +0000 (UTC)
From: James Hollander <mrsocion@aol.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
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Content preview:          Hi ELF,       Stefan DK7FC said>>âŚbetter
to actually measure that'sky-current' Â >>before doing such RF experiments.
If 100 uA isactually unrealistic and
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Subject: LF: Re ELF & ... 12.47 Hz
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------=_Part_5687371_1629512964.1552679367112
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi ELF,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Stefan DK7FC said>>=E2=80=A6better to actually measure that'sky-curre=
nt'=20
=C2=A0 >>before doing such RF experiments. If 100 uA isactually unrealistic=
and=20
=C2=A0>>1 uA is more realistic, then the signal would be even 40 dB weakert=
han=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>expected, which makesit all quite useless.=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Jim W5EST asks: If more signal i=
s needed,=C2=A0would it help to augment the Inv-L with a longertop hat or b=
ig top-capacitance area to get the signal strength up?=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Al=
though Pennock=E2=80=99s 1912 patent hadballoon-carried meshes in mind,=C2=
=A0could aground-based mesh=C2=A0 like Pennock's help,=C2=A0or=C2=A0some =
=C2=A0large multi-wire top hat ditto? http://pat2pdf.org/patents/pat1014719=
.pdf=C2=A0(1912) Apparatus for Collecting ElectricalEnergy.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or =
would two or more Inv-L'sspaced apart at least several tens of meters and c=
onnected together be usefulto get more current.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0Re Jim AA5BW said >>Sounds like =
the voltage divider doesn't need to be more than a
=C2=A0>>gigohm, but perhaps forfuture reference: a reliable 50kV 1terohm di=
vider can be made
=C2=A0>>very easily: encapsulate ten 100 gigohm resistors inhard epoxy, bei=
ng sure not to
=C2=A0>>touch them duringassembly. A single linearity calibration after cur=
ing will be remain
=C2=A0=C2=A0>>valid +/- 10% for years in varyinghumidity and temperature.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Jim W5EST asks: =C2=A0=C2=A0What pream=
pcircuit is used in the DK7FC 12.67Hz receiver?=C2=A0=C2=A0Does it have a g=
igohm or terohm input impedance to less imperfectlymatch to the high input =
impedance of the atmosphere?=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If not, could the design be =
improved for abetter match?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Would perhaps a 1 nFblocking capaci=
tor C in series with a gigohm R, =C2=A0with R across the gate of a preamp F=
ET, keepatmospheric DC voltage from zapping the FET and let the FET amplify=
the 12.67Hzsinusoid.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A01nF x 1 Gigohm =3D 1 sec. time const=
ant so 12.67Hz would easily get through to the FET gate.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t know if SNR wouldbe increased, but seems=
like the more signal (with perhaps less noise) the RXgets from the preamp,=
the better-positioned one is to apply filtering andprocessing to deal with=
low SNR.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Re Stefan DK7FC said:=C2=A0>> =E2=80=A6It ca=
uses some kind of offset, i.e. it lowers
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>the SNR difference to a signal gener=
ated by cloud charges.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Jim W5EST comments:=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0Even i=
f Stefan meant something else, hissentence got me to thinking about whether=
the 5KV ELF on the TX antenna perhaps offsets ordiverts a tiny amount of a=
tmospheric current entering the RX antenna.=C2=A0 We'd think of the atmosph=
ere as having equipotential surface(s)=C2=A0high in big=C2=A0mass of resist=
ive material in which the ELF TX and RX=C2=A0antennas are embedded circuit-=
wise at ground level.=C2=A0 In other words, maybe we could think of the12.6=
7Hz experiment as using the 5KV ELF at the TX antenna to very slightlyperio=
dically disturb the atmospheric currents in the RX antenna a few kilometers=
away.=C2=A0 Unlike Loomis, who apparently imagined a highly conductive laye=
r=C2=A0at tropospheric=C2=A0altitude,=C2=A0we'd picture=C2=A0only high resi=
stivity throughout=C2=A0a volume of calm weather troposphere . =C2=A0=C2=A0=
I=E2=80=99ll try to=C2=A0describe this ideaquantitively in another ELF=C2=
=A0post.
GL & 73, Jim H=C2=A0=C2=A0 W5EST
------=_Part_5687371_1629512964.1552679367112
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<font color=3D'black' size=3D'2' face=3D'Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'><fon=
t face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
'color: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fare=
ast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span sty=
le=3D'color: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso=
-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><spa=
n style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p><=
/span></span></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Hi ELF,</span></=
div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'> &n=
bsp; <strong>Stefan DK7FC said</strong>
>>=E2=80=A6better to actually <b style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: norma=
l;">measure that
'sky-current' <o:p></o:p></b></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><b style=3D"mso-bid=
i-font-weight: normal;"><span style=3D'color: black; font-family: "Arial","=
sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; m=
so-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </sp=
an>>>before doing such RF experiments</span></b><span style=3D'color:=
black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-fon=
t-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'>. If 100 uA is
actually unrealistic and <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>>><b style=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight:=
normal;">1 uA is more realistic</b>, then the signal would be even 40 dB w=
eaker
than <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>>>expected, which makes
it all quite useless. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><b s=
tyle=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Jim W5EST asks</b>: If more signal i=
s needed,<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>would it help to a=
ugment the Inv-L with a longer
top hat or big top-capacitance area to get the signal strength up?<span sty=
le=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Although Pennock=E2=80=
=99s 1912 patent had
balloon-carried meshes in mind,<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </s=
pan>could a
ground-based mesh like Pennock's help, or some large =
multi-wire top hat ditto?<u> <a href=3D"http://pat2pdf.org/patents/pat10147=
19.pdf"><font color=3D"#0000ff">http://pat2pdf.org/patents/pat1014719.pdf</=
font></a>
</u><span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(1912) Apparatus for Co=
llecting Electrical
Energy.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or would two =
or more Inv-L's
spaced apart at least several tens of meters and connected together be usef=
ul
to get more current.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><b s=
tyle=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Re Jim AA5BW</b> said >>Sounds=
like the voltage divider doesn't need to be more than a<o:p></o:p></span><=
/div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span><span style=
=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>>>gigohm, but perhaps for
future reference: a reliable 50kV 1
terohm divider can be made<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>>>very easily: encapsulate ten 100 =
gigohm resistors in
hard epoxy, being sure not to<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>>>touch them during
assembly. A single linearity calibration after curing will be remain<o:p></=
o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> =
</span>>>valid +/- 10% for years in varying
humidity and temperature.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </=
span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><b style=
=3D"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">Jim W5EST asks</b>: <span style=3D"mso-s=
pacerun: yes;"> </span>What preamp
circuit is used in the DK7FC 12.67Hz receiver?<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes;">
</span>Does it have a gigohm or terohm input impedance to less imperfectly
match to the high input impedance of the atmosphere?<span style=3D"mso-spac=
erun: yes;"> </span>If not, could the design be improved =
for a
better match?<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Would p=
erhaps a 1 nF
blocking capacitor C in series with a gigohm R, <span style=3D"mso-spacerun=
: yes;"> </span>with R across the gate of a preamp FET, keep
atmospheric DC voltage from zapping the FET and let the FET amplify the 12.=
67Hz
sinusoid.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> 1nF x 1 Gigoh=
m =3D 1 sec. time constant so 12.67Hz would easily get through to the FET g=
ate.</span></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don=E2=
=80=99t know if SNR would
be increased, but seems like the more signal (with perhaps less noise) the =
RX
gets from the preamp, the better-positioned one is to apply filtering and
processing to deal with low SNR.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><b style=3D"mso-=
bidi-font-weight: normal;">Re Stefan DK7FC said</b>:<span style=3D"mso-spac=
erun: yes;">
</span>>> =E2=80=A6It causes some kind of offset, i.e. it lowers<o:p>=
</o:p></span></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> =
&nb=
sp; </span>>>
the SNR difference to a signal generated by cloud charges.<o:p></o:p></span=
></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">
</font>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style=3D'colo=
r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'><span style=3D=
"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><b style=3D"mso-=
bidi-font-weight: normal;">Jim W5EST </b>comments:<span style=3D"mso-spacer=
un: yes;"> </span><span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </sp=
an>Even if Stefan meant something else, his
sentence got me to thinking about whether the 5KV ELF on the TX antenna per=
haps offsets or
diverts a tiny amount of atmospheric current entering the RX antenna. =
We'd think of the atmosphere as having equipotential surface(s) high =
in big mass of resistive material in which the ELF TX and RX ante=
nnas are embedded circuit-wise at ground level.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:=
yes;"> </span>In other words, maybe we could think of the
12.67Hz experiment as using the 5KV ELF at the TX antenna to very slightly
periodically disturb the atmospheric currents in the RX antenna a few kilom=
eters
away. Unlike Loomis, who apparently imagined a highly conductive laye=
r at tropospheric altitude, we'd picture only high resi=
stivity throughout a volume of calm weather troposphere . <span =
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I=E2=80=99ll try to describe=
this idea
quantitively in another ELF post.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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r: black; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt; mso-fareast-f=
ont-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;'>GL & 73, J=
im H<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>W5EST<o:p></o:p>=
</span></div>
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