Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-md06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 1C9F3380000BA; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1QsglA-0001F0-PY for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:54:12 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Qsgl9-0001Er-A5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:54:11 +0100 Received: from nm19.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.89]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsgl6-0002TE-S2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:54:11 +0100 Received: from [98.139.91.65] by nm19.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2011 19:54:00 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.43] by tm5.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2011 19:54:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1043.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2011 19:54:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 634276.8743.bm@omp1043.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 38714 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Aug 2011 19:54:00 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1313351640; bh=qxXCvXwC4V5A+Q75c86tU4IX5LMm01USeyZMZqEHV4U=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SAJn0eIYadbz3NpP0U+78dyl6X6b3lA9mQpFcCOHZUa5fNV9F/l/ltE2FAJnB1JgFUzFqit3SMxryyb6lHo+bFHqkb85djw+JMEtjfOqomrR4rchNjZ9Zcb+c9zC1wyDO4WzesipyyaM7KftaD2/1kA5YLl2JE7FbD02Np0ZN/k= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=V8MFikeA5iugtQSByGdTaGLBvtMYWJujgQmYM2hlDfFIs5tSh8ev7WXg4QNyxPuDA9sZ8ZmorVx4aUTf0dwmlJCfycCDcxfJeQAfjCIhHbz/3n16098c8Bp4WxinBcFOE9CbeXBpc/Qp5wyfEnnb7iPZ+TAYU9TlEPwHO+xuP28=; X-YMail-OSG: 4ikuVnYVM1ld.pj4l0i3.kCKT7Xk_GdRHUXZilA9lIOjVXv g_WoDK4SA7E.onS_xNnaA26TfOQDZVK_899yBkUOwx1eWzzShFwqWNZYSrWf 3n607WP.zXV0N5aTEuVSoY266hGi2lr.TbKSUhgBhqcFQQzQ7tDkBgXsh8T8 Yy.yR2qXJn_NxaUSqENaauMi77_7r3mJBJR2zamDTQqr8jlRGuV.yFhC06HS zdWP8SYHfRH4hb2GHskUbO9G46WY2eZak53WZqsZZ5NP0iGg9rjj5_kJ1pFl nolJltIJKiNrOKIWutOBeW7rK67ZlzDpEG4tZE8MP6pNzYv4py7UadqD4oRW DFlu9a84arTYWuhPntd3fGuSR8lPFrYUJEfO8fmmkv6kf.YqQOSKYZkonIMm 8B8fRST4d5CtpcFwhBlJD04gUrGLOHdac90.6PSSYA5rm6I8YNNbm644Fs06 pHNvQcfh705NidM2Q1bVhTAevv.2Kmdlsy4lxQClVcZXHu.aXI7TSwGFVUOl oVhSvcAeyL2rOJDi0mH8c0VBmMap7QZlmA9T.dq.uR84UhooX Received: from [82.61.67.1] by web111914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:54:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: <68BE37BD69E54DEE89CEBA8E30E9B94E@PcMinto> <4E47FFE9.10100@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <3ED8E5422F1F45DBB8186E9D9870AD63@PcMinto> <1313344278.62085.YahooMailNeo@web111919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <17D19FD7142949738965F1243D471F55@PcMinto> Message-ID: <1313351640.32350.YahooMailNeo@web111914.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:54:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniele Tincani To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TINY_FONT=1.425 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 grabbers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1956456962-1313351640=:32350" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.9 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,WEIRD_PORT autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:484683168:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d256.1 ; domain : yahoo.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d605a4e48282572fd X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --0-1956456962-1313351640=:32350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't worry Minto, this circuits was re-published a number of times on the = web :-)=0AAnyway, I agree that a reference to the original article may give= a more complete background and might be helpful to the reader.=0ABest 73= =0ADaniele=0A=0AFrom: Minto Witteveen =0ATo: rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org=0ASent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:18 PM=0ASubject= : LF: Re: 137 grabbers=0A=0A=0AHi Daniele, =0AYup that=E2=80=99s the one. M= y shameless theft is exposed J=0AI see that the only thing _I_ did was re-d= raw the schematics (I use =0AKicad).=0AOf course I should have acknowledged= the original author on my =0Awebpage =E2=80=93 will do that next time I up= date my =0Awebsite. =0ARegards,=0AMinto pa3bca. =0A=0AFrom: Daniele Tincani= =0ASent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 19:51 =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g =0ASubject: Re: LF: Re: 137 grabbers =0A Minto, =0Athis is the M0AYF pag= e I referred to: =0Ahttp://www.qsl.net/m0ayf/active-loop-receiving-antenna.= html =0AMay be you "stole" the=C2=A0 original schematics from there? =0A:-)= =0ABest regards =0ADaniele =0A=0AFrom: Minto Witteveen =0A=0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=0ASent: Sunday, August 14, 2= 011 7:33 =0APM=0ASubject: LF: Re: 137 =0Agrabbers=0A=0A=0AStefan, LF =0ANot= my own design, I don=E2=80=99t remember exactly where I got it but I am = =0Apretty sure I stole the idea =E2=80=98from the Internet=E2=80=99 and pos= sible made some changes. =0AThe bc337 was used as I have a lot of them lyin= g around, and they are much =0Abetter than for instance the bc547 (my other= jellybean transistor).=0AThe =0Areason I used a -43 type toroid is because= I built it for use on 500 KHz and up. =C2=A0Especially for 80 and 40 meter= s. Type-43 is better here than =0AType-77. On HF this loop is _much, much_ = better than my end-fed TX wire in terms =0Aof S/N. The wire picks up a lot = of noise from the house (and from my neighbors =0Ahouses). The loop is plac= ed to null- out this QRM as much as possible.=0AAbove =0A10 MHz the gain dr= ops off rapidly, it is nearly useless at 14 MHz. a -77 type =0Awould be muc= h worse there I think.=0AAs for the Q: I did a comparison between =0Aan FT5= 0-43 and a 14 mm 4C6 (for my 137 KHz low-pass filter, see my website). The = =0AQ of the FT50-43 coil was abt 50, the 4C6 =E2=80=93 with a lower Al - wa= s 140 !! Needed =0Amore turns ofcourse. On the other hand the Q of this tor= oid is not very =0Aimportant here as it is used as a broad-band transformer= . =0AThis is only my hobby=E2=80=A6 Originally I am a Civil Engineer (but m= y job =0Anow is in IT). =0A73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca =0A=0A----------------= ----------------------------------------------------------=0ACeterum =0Acen= seo Carthaginem delendam esse=0A =0A=0AFrom: Stefan Sch=C3=A4fer =0ASent: = Sunday, August 14, 2011 19:03 =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0ASubje= ct: Re: LF: Re: 137 grabbers =0A This =0Alooks like a very good design. Fas= cinating easy!! Is it completely grown in your =0Ahead or have you seen it = somewhere in the web?=0AWhat is the gain, about? I =0Aknow the BC337 as a l= ow noise NPN transistor.=0AYour loop is 2m diameter? How =0Amany dBs is the= background noise abovethe soundcard noise?=0A=0AAnother =0Aquestion: Why a= re the T37-43 (the 43 types in general) preferred to the 77 =0Atypes? The 7= 7 types have a higher AL value and should come out with less turns. =0AI tr= ied to wind a band pass coil with but of the types (T50-43 and T50-77) and = =0Aachieved about the same Q. Is it just a question of an available =0Adist= ributor?=0A=0AAnd what is your job? Do you have to design electrical =0Acir= cuits? ;-)=0A=0A73, Stefan/DK7FC=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAm 14.08.2011 18:07, =0Aschr= ieb Minto Witteveen: =0A =0A>Loop antenna: http://www.pa3bca.nl/index.php?o= ption=3Dcom_content&view=3Darticle&id=3D10&Itemid=3D14 =0A>From: Minto Witt= eveen =0A>Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 18:03 =0A>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org =0A>Subject: Re: LF: 137 grabbers =0A> Mal, LF, =0A>=0A>I am now = using a single-turn loop in the backyard (hight abt 2 meters) instead of t= he miniwhip. =0A>One of these days I will test again with the =0A miniwhip= . First impression (testing the noise against DCF39) was that they =0A don= t differ very much. =0A>=0A>73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca (grabber at http://pa= 3bca.pa3bca.nl:8181) =0A>=0A>---------------------------------------------= -----------------------------=0A>Ceterum =0A censeo Carthaginem delendam e= sse=0A> =0A>=0A>From: mal hamilton =0A>Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 17:51= =0A>To: rsgb =0A>Subject: LF: 137 grabbers =0A> LF =0A>My signal seems co= nsistant on the PA3PCA grabber but varies a lot on the DK7FC grabber, some= times stronger on this grabber and others like now barely visible. Could i= t be the type of antenna in use ie one is more prone to noise es qsb than = the other? =0A>de =0A>mal/g3kev --0-1956456962-1313351640=:32350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't worry Minto, this circuits was re-published a number of time= s on the web :-)
Anyway, I = agree that a reference to the original article may give a more complete bac= kground and might be helpful to the reader.
Best 73<= /span>
Daniele

<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">
From: Minto Witt= eveen <minto.witteveen@gmail.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:18 PM
Subject: LF: Re: 137 grabbers
=
=0A =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Hi Da= niele,
=0A
Yup that= =E2=80=99s the one. My shameless theft is exposed J
I see that the only thing _I_ did was re-draw = the schematics (I use =0AKicad).
Of course I should have acknowledged th= e original author on my =0Awebpage =E2=80=93 will do that next time I updat= e my =0Awebsite.
=0A
= Regards,
Minto pa3bca.
=0A
=0A
=0A=
 
=0A
=0A=0A
Sent: Sunday,= August 14, 2011 19:51
=0A=0A
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 g= rabbers
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
Minto,=0A
this is the M0AYF page I referred to:
=0A=0A
May be you "stole" the&n= bsp; original schematics from there? =0A:-)
=0A
Best = regards
=0A
Daniele
=0A
 
= =0A
=0A
=0A
From: Minto Witteveen =0A<minto.witteveen@= gmail.com>
To: =0Ars= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:33 =0APM
Subject: LF: Re: 137 =0Agrabbers

=0A = =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Stefan, LF<= /font>
=0A
Not my own design, I don= =E2=80=99t remember exactly where I got it but I am =0Apretty sure I stole = the idea =E2=80=98from the Internet=E2=80=99 and possible made some changes= . =0AThe bc337 was used as I have a lot of them lying around, and they are = much =0Abetter than for instance the bc547 (my other jellybean transistor).=
The =0Areason I used a -43 type toroid is because I built it for use on= 500 KHz and up. =0A Especially for 80 and 40 meters. Typ= e-43 is better here than =0AType-77. On HF this loop is _much, much_ better= than my end-fed TX wire in terms =0Aof S/N. The wire picks up a lot of noi= se from the house (and from my neighbors =0Ahouses). The loop is placed to = null- out this QRM as much as possible.
Above =0A10 MHz the gain drops o= ff rapidly, it is nearly useless at 14 MHz. a -77 type =0Awould be much wor= se there I think.
As for the Q: I did a comparison between =0Aan FT50-43= and a 14 mm 4C6 (for my 137 KHz low-pass filter, see my website). The =0AQ= of the FT50-43 coil was abt 50, the 4C6 =E2=80=93 with a lower Al - was 14= 0 !! Needed =0Amore turns ofcourse. On the other hand the Q of this toroid = is not very =0Aimportant here as it is used as a broad-band transformer.
=0A
This is only my hobb= y=E2=80=A6 Originally I am a Civil Engineer (but my job =0Anow is in IT).
=0A
73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca
=0A
 
=0A
-------------------------------------------------------------= -------------
Ceterum =0Acenseo Carthaginem delendam esse
=0A=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A=0A
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 20= 11 19:03
=0A=0A
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 grabbers
<= /div>
=0A
 
=0A
This =0Alooks like a very good design. Fascinating easy!! Is it com= pletely grown in your =0Ahead or have you seen it somewhere in the web?
= What is the gain, about? I =0Aknow the BC337 as a low noise NPN transistor.=
Your loop is 2m diameter? How =0Amany dBs is the background noise above= the soundcard noise?

Another =0Aquestion: Why are the T37-43 (the 43= types in general) preferred to the 77 =0Atypes? The 77 types have a higher= AL value and should come out with less turns. =0AI tried to wind a band pa= ss coil with but of the types (T50-43 and T50-77) and =0Aachieved about the= same Q. Is it just a question of an available =0Adistributor?

And w= hat is your job? Do you have to design electrical =0Acircuits? ;-)

7= 3, Stefan/DK7FC




Am 14.08.2011 18:07, =0Aschrieb Minto Wi= tteveen: =0A
=0A =0A=0A
=0A
=0A =0A =0A
=0A
=0A =0A
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 18:03
=0A= =0A
Subject: Re: LF: 137 grabbers
=0A =
 
=0A
=0A=
=0A
=0A
Mal, LF= ,
=0A
 
=0A
I am now using a single-turn loop in= the backyard (hight abt 2 meters) =0A instead of the miniwhip.
One of= these days I will test again with the =0A miniwhip. First impression (tes= ting the noise against DCF39) was that they =0A dont differ very much.=0A
 
=0A
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca (grabber at h= ttp://pa3bca.pa3bca.nl:8181)
=0A
 
=0A
--------------------------------------------------= ------------------------
Ceterum =0A censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
=0A
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
From: mal hamilton =0A
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 17:51
=0A
To:= rsgb
=0A
Subject: LF: 137 g= rabbers
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
LF
=0A=
My signal seems consistant on the PA3PCA grabbe= r but =0A varies a lot on the DK7FC grabber, sometimes stronger on this gr= abber and =0A others like now barely visible. Could it be the type of ante= nna in use ie one =0A is more prone to noise es qsb than the other?=
=0A
de
=0A
mal/g3kev
=0A=0A

=0A


--0-1956456962-1313351640=:32350--