Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-de02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6495138000094; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1QseqP-0000IE-W0 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:51:29 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1QseqP-0000I5-9r for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:51:29 +0100 Received: from nm13.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.83]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1QseqN-0000Mp-6W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:51:29 +0100 Received: from [98.139.91.66] by nm13.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2011 17:51:19 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.49] by tm6.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2011 17:51:19 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1049.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2011 17:51:19 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 310534.63959.bm@omp1049.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 63786 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Aug 2011 17:51:18 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1313344278; bh=Bi5orb17KH04HBgEfcD8y1YMTPgBQ/LfMNHJuOfoK3s=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Xrt+4IdXnYmJvKN871CHAJPnVYcDk02rzF8nsh+CHscM9hVbu7500w6d5flYLXax5LMz51yssOs63/P3Wj7Aob9rxpvKHhea0Md2Kk2k8oc+PqBAW+SUufFdsiVflRpiqd4LYQRIf4mXFnT/7evxkoEqUwwd6IOWJ1PrbTELmcU= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=XjJkp7Ao5qCgR4iYxg/qphozd2aWH+QtuiPkYTTEvfIjXaSOLOnAOEGG2ImsWT72i4wPiwUipZo6Hwyw2WrkBLjJ20HfHvM+Ip8opzzbuzxTTd2ZXy4WedFUZ4pttHjmQUvg4QTXAhuM+vDghj9C8jmbDKnJAWiQPzyqEpufhH4=; X-YMail-OSG: 49ygDPQVM1nxXotQG5zrXIozlY4CMwxmQZmdCl5kA3eRBm1 orvrq0FSeKtyBru_qKwOvdHnjEWNS2pAsA6cV7mKaFyywA2h08GjaoIoaluM 0C6Mnh19iH41BbJjDiA_ZOmXMfYz2w8BWhAJf3r7HU6otYBo88Gfe6y91rd3 LdujlXm1di43ESQwhcWyi1p1F7o1JrQVMN8OrFD4A2jO0HsQvOEKBDiOUCrJ 1OIs3x41qGFV9QZyjwmkuBetkh34Gyhhp7D_1DTX04G37Shl0VreCXFx0eHZ yLyjOWScmIEQNIFCyZHAcJrfv_A4ICQWITQKg7BD5WixdccbUYo6UgO.eeYG N19SLzEYYbCIqIOieqwCkqz868V9M2x5q.QKeTmNSV.fyPzfKd52bbEnmxK. 63kwkS_7g2iNlPY6Necdp9laS0uxnB6aukTqkiYj1FK8PwFp0PQLjo55TFia zR3yTyo7tPc3efS_Zd0W7InkfMgTJ6KZIiwxPi2HwIZyWodoztm8FOFcA2JS M_i8KaXPbu.qF4Q-- Received: from [87.6.203.78] by web111919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:51:18 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: <68BE37BD69E54DEE89CEBA8E30E9B94E@PcMinto> <4E47FFE9.10100@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <3ED8E5422F1F45DBB8186E9D9870AD63@PcMinto> Message-ID: <1313344278.62085.YahooMailNeo@web111919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:51:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniele Tincani To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" In-Reply-To: <3ED8E5422F1F45DBB8186E9D9870AD63@PcMinto> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TINY_FONT=1.425 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 grabbers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1480129046-1313344278=:62085" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.9 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,WEIRD_PORT autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:447977696:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d235.1 ; domain : yahoo.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40ca4e480b64176a X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --0-1480129046-1313344278=:62085 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Minto,=0Athis is the M0AYF page I referred to:=0Ahttp://www.qsl.net/m0ayf/a= ctive-loop-receiving-antenna.html=0AMay be you "stole" the=C2=A0 original s= chematics from there? :-)=0ABest regards=0ADaniele=0A=0AFrom: Minto Witteve= en =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=0ASent: S= unday, August 14, 2011 7:33 PM=0ASubject: LF: Re: 137 grabbers=0A=0A=0AStef= an, LF =0ANot my own design, I don=E2=80=99t remember exactly where I got i= t but I am =0Apretty sure I stole the idea =E2=80=98from the Internet=E2=80= =99 and possible made some changes. =0AThe bc337 was used as I have a lot o= f them lying around, and they are much =0Abetter than for instance the bc54= 7 (my other jellybean transistor).=0AThe =0Areason I used a -43 type toroid= is because I built it for use on 500 KHz and up. =C2=A0Especially for 80 a= nd 40 meters. =0AType-43 is better here than Type-77. On HF this loop is _m= uch, much_ better than =0Amy end-fed TX wire in terms of S/N. The wire pick= s up a lot of noise from the =0Ahouse (and from my neighbors houses). The l= oop is placed to null- out this QRM =0Aas much as possible.=0AAbove 10 MHz = the gain drops off rapidly, it is nearly =0Auseless at 14 MHz. a -77 type w= ould be much worse there I think.=0AAs for the =0AQ: I did a comparison bet= ween an FT50-43 and a 14 mm 4C6 (for my 137 KHz =0Alow-pass filter, see my = website). The Q of the FT50-43 coil was abt 50, the 4C6 =0A=E2=80=93 with a= lower Al - was 140 !! Needed more turns ofcourse. On the other hand the = =0AQ of this toroid is not very important here as it is used as a broad-ban= d =0Atransformer. =0AThis is only my hobby=E2=80=A6 Originally I am a Civil= Engineer (but my job =0Anow is in IT). =0A73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca =0A=0A= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =0ACeterum =0Acenseo Carthaginem delendam esse=0A =0A=0AFrom: Stefan Sch=C3= =A4fer =0ASent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 19:03 =0ATo: rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org =0ASubject: Re: LF: Re: 137 grabbers =0A This =0Alooks like a very= good design. Fascinating easy!! Is it completely grown in your =0Ahead or = have you seen it somewhere in the web?=0AWhat is the gain, about? I =0Aknow= the BC337 as a low noise NPN transistor.=0AYour loop is 2m diameter? How = =0Amany dBs is the background noise abovethe soundcard noise?=0A=0AAnother = =0Aquestion: Why are the T37-43 (the 43 types in general) preferred to the = 77 =0Atypes? The 77 types have a higher AL value and should come out with l= ess turns. =0AI tried to wind a band pass coil with but of the types (T50-4= 3 and T50-77) and =0Aachieved about the same Q. Is it just a question of an= available =0Adistributor?=0A=0AAnd what is your job? Do you have to design= electrical =0Acircuits? ;-)=0A=0A73, Stefan/DK7FC=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAm 14.08.2= 011 18:07, =0Aschrieb Minto Witteveen: =0A =0A>Loop antenna: http://www.pa3= bca.nl/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&view=3Darticle&id=3D10&Itemid=3D14 = =0A>From: Minto Witteveen =0A>Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 18:03 =0A>To:= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =0A>Subject: Re: LF: 137 grabbers =0A> Mal, = LF, =0A>=0A>I am now using a single-turn loop in the backyard (hight abt 2 = meters) instead of the miniwhip. =0A>One of these days I will test again w= ith the =0A miniwhip. First impression (testing the noise against DCF39) w= as that they =0A dont differ very much. =0A>=0A>73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = (grabber at http://pa3bca.pa3bca.nl:8181) =0A>=0A>------------------------= --------------------------------------------------=0A>Ceterum =0A censeo C= arthaginem delendam esse=0A> =0A>=0A>From: mal hamilton =0A>Sent: Sunday, = August 14, 2011 17:51 =0A>To: rsgb =0A>Subject: LF: 137 grabbers =0A> LF = =0A>My signal seems consistant on the PA3PCA grabber but varies a lot on t= he DK7FC grabber, sometimes stronger on this grabber and others like now b= arely visible. Could it be the type of antenna in use ie one is more prone= to noise es qsb than the other? =0A>de =0A>mal/g3kev --0-1480129046-1313344278=:62085 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Minto,
this is the M0AYF page I referred to:
http://w= ww.qsl.net/m0ayf/active-loop-receiving-antenna.html
May be you "stole" the  original schematics from there? :-)=
Best regards
Daniele

From: Minto Witteveen <minto.witteveen@gmail.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:33 PM
Subject: LF: Re: 137 grabber= s

=0A =0A =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Stefan, LF
=0A
Not my own design, I don=E2=80=99t remember exactly whe= re I got it but I am =0Apretty sure I stole the idea =E2=80=98from the Inte= rnet=E2=80=99 and possible made some changes. =0AThe bc337 was used as I ha= ve a lot of them lying around, and they are much =0Abetter than for instanc= e the bc547 (my other jellybean transistor).
The =0Areason I used a -43 = type toroid is because I built it for use on 500 KHz and up. =0A = ;Especially for 80 and 40 meters. =0AType-43 is better here than Typ= e-77. On HF this loop is _much, much_ better than =0Amy end-fed TX wire in = terms of S/N. The wire picks up a lot of noise from the =0Ahouse (and from = my neighbors houses). The loop is placed to null- out this QRM =0Aas much a= s possible.
Above 10 MHz the gain drops off rapidly, it is nearly =0Ause= less at 14 MHz. a -77 type would be much worse there I think.
As for the= =0AQ: I did a comparison between an FT50-43 and a 14 mm 4C6 (for my 137 KH= z =0Alow-pass filter, see my website). The Q of the FT50-43 coil was abt 50= , the 4C6 =0A=E2=80=93 with a lower Al - was 140 !! Needed more turns ofcou= rse. On the other hand the =0AQ of this toroid is not very important here a= s it is used as a broad-band =0Atransformer.
=0A
This is only my hobby=E2=80=A6 Originally I am a= Civil Engineer (but my job =0Anow is in IT).
=0A
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
=
=0A
 
=0A
---------------------------------------------= -----------------------------
Ceterum =0Acenseo Carthaginem delendam ess= e
=0A
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A=0A
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 19:03
=0A=0A
Subject: Re: LF: = Re: 137 grabbers
=0A
 
=0A
T= his =0Alooks like a very good design. Fascinating easy!! Is it completely g= rown in your =0Ahead or have you seen it somewhere in the web?
What is t= he gain, about? I =0Aknow the BC337 as a low noise NPN transistor.
Your = loop is 2m diameter? How =0Amany dBs is the background noise abovethe sound= card noise?

Another =0Aquestion: Why are the T37-43 (the 43 types in= general) preferred to the 77 =0Atypes? The 77 types have a higher AL value= and should come out with less turns. =0AI tried to wind a band pass coil w= ith but of the types (T50-43 and T50-77) and =0Aachieved about the same Q. = Is it just a question of an available =0Adistributor?

And what is yo= ur job? Do you have to design electrical =0Acircuits? ;-)

73, Stefan= /DK7FC




Am 14.08.2011 18:07, =0Aschrieb Minto Witteveen: = =0A
=0A =0A =0A=0A
=0A
=0A =0A
=0A
=0A
=0A =0A
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 18:03=0A =0A
Subject: Re: LF: 137 grabbers
= =0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A <= div>Mal, LF,
=0A
 
=0A
I am now using a single-t= urn loop in the backyard (hight abt 2 meters) =0A instead of the miniwhip.=
One of these days I will test again with the =0A miniwhip. First impr= ession (testing the noise against DCF39) was that they =0A dont differ ver= y much.
=0A
 
=0A =0A
 
= =0A
----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
Ceterum =0A censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
=0A
=0A
<= font face=3D"Arial">LF
=0A
My signal= seems consistant on the PA3PCA grabber but =0A varies a lot on the DK7FC = grabber, sometimes stronger on this grabber and =0A others like now barely= visible. Could it be the type of antenna in use ie one =0A is more prone = to noise es qsb than the other?
=0A
= de
=0A
mal/g3kev
<= /div>
=0A


<= /div> --0-1480129046-1313344278=:62085--