Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-di04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 98371380000A4; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 19:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Ut4XG-0001bn-CP for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 00:26:30 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ut4XF-0001be-FN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 00:26:29 +0100 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Ut4XA-0004XC-Nh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 00:26:28 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.145.208.144]) by mwinf5d08 with ME id uPSP1l00137U5W703PSPVg; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 01:26:24 +0200 Message-ID: <10BAF66D5B7D431F920FE2AF35432F93@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <003d01ce71b1$fc0c55e0$f42501a0$@comcast.net> <51C9B3DE.6070603@psk31.plus.com> <51C9D009.6030802@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <51C9F5E2.5020507@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <51CA027E.4040308@psk31.plus.com> <51CA0850.5060103@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <51CB6FE1.6030103@charter.net> <001101ce736d$b1945180$0201a8c0@marco09cqcdi12> <51CC9B99.6090301@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <2BE7AC2FD8F843EA967A9A4B65348142@White> <55C69C0F09EE4695B59B1EB122FD02A4@AGB> <7D1F3B98C40B45DF84DF3FC8138E811A@White> In-Reply-To: <7D1F3B98C40B45DF84DF3FC8138E811A@White> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 00:26:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Well Markus , Those of us with radio controlled clock's salute you ! [And with dfc39-1 just down the road , it must be a hostile radio environment ...] To extract the s/n / dB levels from Op , getting the recovered signal to the dsp engine with as little change to the parameters as possible is critical . as the system is self sync' , the main concern is the % noise to tx time , in 32 mins , this may not be too large ? , [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.29 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: ef570e47a9cf5159a8093427727c2c22 Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01CE7528.72F8C250" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1da60851cf6d803fe7 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01CE7528.72F8C250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well Markus , Those of us with radio controlled clock's salute = you ! [And with dfc39-1 just down the road , it must be a hostile = radio environment ...]=20 To extract the s/n / dB levels from Op , getting the recovered = signal to the dsp engine with as little change to the parameters as = possible is critical . as the system is self sync' , the main = concern is the % noise to tx time , in 32 mins , this may not be = too large ? ,=20 Ringing in my conventional Rx's produces a very wide 'slash' = over the the band , it was only with the $5 dongle and the = 'fast' sdr-sharp software , that I spotted the modulation was = up-wards ... ! with a small ATU , that could be a better Rx = method , the atu being needed to remove the local 3 carrier = MW station , something to have a go at , when I find the bench = in the shed . Odd that Joe's signal skipped over the UK last night ?=20 73 -G..=20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 6:45 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz=20 Hi Graham, following your advice I've now taken out the SpecLab filter / noise = blanker again. Not sure whether this will be for the better... anyway = I'm aiming for a fair comparison of our two Opera reception methods. Re DCF39: yes the space freq (139.17) is above the mark (138.83 kHz). = But the biggest problem is the unfiltered FSK hardkeying, which (even at = 325 km) produces annoying splatter down to about 136.6 kHz during each = data telegram. That's almost 5 kHz occupied bandwidth for a 200 baud FSK = signal! Should be completely inacceptable by any standard, but = apparently fulfills specifications of their TRAM transmitter :-( Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Graham=20 Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 11:42 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz=20 Ok Marcus ,=20 Needs must , I dont think the frequency translation would be a = problem, but any modification to the envelope parameters will = degrade performance , the low s/n sdr decodes , point to the = lack of 'ringing' in the filters , enabling much lower levels , = notably , using the =A35 dongle in direct-sample , I see the = modulation is HF of the carrier , where with any of the = conventional Rx's , there is a splash across the band .=20 Strange that Iceland has not shown a decode , its about 1000 K = north of the direct path and half the range , expected ? 73 -G. From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 8:53 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz=20 yes. I'm aware that Opera should nominally be fed with straight = full-band SSB. But going by the first results, the preprocessing seemed = to help a lot in the presence of our strong DCF splatters, so I left it = in. In any case I'd need SL as an audio mixer to accomodate my fixed = 135.5 kHz LO. Best 73, Markus ... ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01CE7528.72F8C250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well  Markus  ,   Those of us with  = radio =20 controlled  clock's   salute  you  !
 
[And  with  dfc39-1  just  down the  road = ,=20 it  must be  a  hostile  radio  = environment  ...]=20
 
To  extract the  s/n / dB levels  from  Op , = getting=20 the  recovered  signal to the  dsp engine  with = as =20 little  change to the  parameters as possible =  is =20 critical . as the  system is  self  sync'  , = the =20 main  concern is the   % noise to  tx  = time , in=20 32  mins , this  may not  be  too  large ? , =
 
Ringing  in  my  conventional Rx's  = produces =20 a  very  wide 'slash'   over the  the  = band =20 , it  was  only with the  $5  dongle  and = the =20 'fast'  sdr-sharp  software , that  I spotted the =20 modulation  was  up-wards  ... !  with a =20 small   ATU , that  could  be  a  = better Rx=20  method  , the  atu  being needed  to  = remove=20 the  local    3  carrier  MW station  = ,=20 something  to  have a  go  at , when I  = find =20 the  bench in the  shed .
 
Odd  that Joe's   signal  skipped over   = the =20 UK last  night  ? 
 
73 -G..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

From: Markus Vester
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 6:45 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups= .co.uk=20
Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz

Hi Graham,
 
following your advice I've now taken = out the=20 SpecLab filter / noise blanker again. Not sure whether this will be for = the=20 better... anyway I'm aiming for a fair comparison of our = two=20 Opera reception methods.
 
Re DCF39: yes the space freq (139.17) = is above the=20 mark (138.83 kHz). But the biggest problem is the unfiltered = FSK=20 hardkeying, which (even at 325 km) produces annoying splatter down to = about=20 136.6 kHz during each data telegram. That's almost 5 kHz occupied = bandwidth=20 for a 200 baud FSK signal! Should be completely inacceptable by any = standard, but apparently fulfills specifications of their TRAM = transmitter=20 :-(
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

From: Graham
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 11:42 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz

Ok Marcus ,
 
Needs  must , I dont  think the   = frequency =20 translation  would be  a  problem, but any = modification  to=20 the  envelope parameters  will  degrade  performance = , =20 the  low  s/n sdr  decodes  , point to  = the =20 lack  of  'ringing'  in the  filters , = enabling  much=20 lower  levels , notably , using the  =A35   = dongle  in=20 direct-sample  , I see  the  modulation  is  HF = of=20 the  carrier  , where  with  any  of the =20 conventional  Rx's  , there is a  splash  = across =20 the  band .
 
Strange that  Iceland  has not  shown a  = decode  ,=20 its about  1000  K  north  of the  direct  = path=20 and  half the  range ,    expected  = ?
 
73 -G.
 
 
 
From: Markus Vester
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: LF: VO1NA Op32 137.555 kHz

yes. I'm aware that Opera should = nominally be=20 fed with straight full-band SSB. But going by the first = results, the=20 preprocessing seemed to help a lot in the presence = of our strong DCF=20 splatters, so I left it in. In any case I'd need SL as an = audio mixer to=20 accomodate my fixed 135.5 kHz LO.
 
Best 73,
Markus
 ...
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