Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x0DJ3JdU017242 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 20:03:25 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gikvi-0002EN-Pl for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 18:56:18 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gikvf-0002EE-J2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 18:56:15 +0000 Received: from emout02.email.it ([212.97.34.18]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1gikux-0004Lj-39 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 18:56:14 +0000 Received: from emout02.email.it (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by emout02.email.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED0682189 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:54:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from x220.localnet (62-11-169-126.dialup.tiscali.it [62.11.169.126]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by emout02.email.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72D7F82187 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:54:19 +0100 (CET) From: Claudio Pozzi To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:54:09 +0100 Message-ID: <10049730.U2aOLNr8sH@x220> User-Agent: KMail/4.14.1 (Linux/3.16.0-4-amd64; KDE/4.14.2; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: On Sunday, January 13, 2019 04:35:19 PM you wrote: > It's only taken me about 20 years on LF to actually think about, and > calculate, this... > > We all know we're supposed to attenuate harmonics and [...] Content analysis details: (-0.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [212.97.34.18 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (smtp01[at]email.it) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (smtp01[at]email.it) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: cbf9d9751ac5f32708197d03fa6d8d74 Subject: Re: LF: Low Pass Filtering Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart10822660.3Hrkhpryba" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart10822660.3Hrkhpryba Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Sunday, January 13, 2019 04:35:19 PM you wrote: > It's only taken me about 20 years on LF to actually think about, and > calculate, this... > > We all know we're supposed to attenuate harmonics and unwanted signals, so > most LF amplifiers, especially switching types, incorporate a low pass > filter - usually the traditional T or Pi design. > > But I always felt the hi-Q antenna assembly would do a pretty good job of > filtering in its own right, and didn't use any LPF on either the 700 Watt > 137kHz Tx which has a tuned tank output (Ql = 6) or the 400W class E 475kHz > unit. > > However, thought it was time to try to calculate the actual attenuation of > harmonics. So, using the inductance of the loading coil which goes up > proportional to harmonic number, N, Rrad of the antenna that goes up with > N squared and a crude approximation of Rloss changing as 1/N, plugged all > those into a spreadsheet and found the following on my 7m high Tee antenna > > At 137kHz the relative radiated level of harmonics is between 50dB down at > 2nd and 3rd, dropping to 45db at 8-9. Considering the switcher PA plus > tank is about -30dB to start with that looks well within the recommended > -70dB for high power amps > > At 475kHz low order are only 33dB down and higher up -30dB. I don't have a > figure for the class-E starting harmonic level, but IIRC it was of the same > order as the 137 Tx, so again that looks near acceptable. Interesting idea Andy, you are right but... ...some people can't live without the SWR meter on the transmission line: the harmonics not irradiated return toward the Tx and the SWR meter show an high value: terrible!!! (but if you have a LPF the SWR is also high BEFORE the filter and the SWR meter, nobody measure the SWR between the MOSFETS and the LPF...) In my opinion the high SWR doesn't matter if the transmission line length is less than 1/10 of the wavelength (and if the power stage of Tx have an SWR protection, i.e. an VDR between drain and source); we can save some coil and some high voltage and high current capacitor. 73 Claudio, IK2PII > > Of course, your antenna / loading coil assembly will differ, and larger > antennas / smaller coils will not provide as much attenuation but it is > still enough to suggest the 5th order filters in use on some designs are a > bit OTT. > > One thing I haven't considered is how distributed capacitance in the > loading coil might compromise rejection of higher order harmonics, but that > can be mitigated by the Tx producing less of them in the first place. > > Did the original Decca transmitters have any extra low -pass filtering ? > > Tee antenna design spreadsheet at http://www.g4jnt.com/DropF/teeantcalcs.xls > > Andy > www.g4jnt.com > > > paign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. > www.avg.com > paign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB- A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -- -- ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli Clicca qui http://posta.email.it/caselle-di-posta-z-email-it/?utm_campaign=email_Zimbra_102014=main_footer/f Sponsor: Soluzioni di email hosting per tutte le esigenze: dalle caselle gratuite a quelle professionali su piattaforma Zimbra, da quelle su proprio dominio a quelle certificate PEC. Confronta le soluzioni Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=13325&d=13-1 --nextPart10822660.3Hrkhpryba Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

On Sunday, January 13, 2019 04:35:19 PM you wrote:

> It's only taken me about 20 years on LF to actually think about, and

> calculate, this...

>

> We all know we're supposed to attenuate harmonics and unwanted signals, so

> most LF amplifiers, especially switching types, incorporate a low pass

> filter - usually the traditional T or Pi design.

>

> But I always felt the hi-Q antenna assembly would do a pretty good job of

> filtering in its own right, and didn't use any LPF on either the 700 Watt

> 137kHz Tx which has a tuned tank output (Ql = 6) or the 400W class E 475kHz

> unit.

>

> However, thought it was time to try to calculate the actual attenuation of

> harmonics. So, using the inductance of the loading coil which goes up

> proportional to harmonic number, N, Rrad of the antenna that goes up with

> N squared and a crude approximation of Rloss changing as 1/N, plugged all

> those into a spreadsheet and found the following on my 7m high Tee antenna

>

> At 137kHz the relative radiated level of harmonics is between 50dB down at

> 2nd and 3rd, dropping to 45db at 8-9. Considering the switcher PA plus

> tank is about -30dB to start with that looks well within the recommended

> -70dB for high power amps

>

> At 475kHz low order are only 33dB down and higher up -30dB. I don't have a

> figure for the class-E starting harmonic level, but IIRC it was of the same

> order as the 137 Tx, so again that looks near acceptable.

 

Interesting idea Andy, you are right but...

 

...some people can't live without the SWR meter on the transmission line: the harmonics not irradiated return toward the Tx and the SWR meter show an high value: terrible!!! (but if you have a LPF the SWR is also high BEFORE the filter and the SWR meter, nobody measure the SWR between the MOSFETS and the LPF...)

In my opinion the high SWR doesn't matter if the transmission line length is less than 1/10 of the wavelength (and if the power stage of Tx have an SWR protection, i.e. an VDR between drain and source); we can save some coil and some high voltage and high current capacitor.

 

73

Claudio, IK2PII

 

>

> Of course, your antenna / loading coil assembly will differ, and larger

> antennas / smaller coils will not provide as much attenuation but it is

> still enough to suggest the 5th order filters in use on some designs are a

> bit OTT.

>

> One thing I haven't considered is how distributed capacitance in the

> loading coil might compromise rejection of higher order harmonics, but that

> can be mitigated by the Tx producing less of them in the first place.

>

> Did the original Decca transmitters have any extra low -pass filtering ?

>

> Tee antenna design spreadsheet at http://www.g4jnt.com/DropF/teeantcalcs.xls

>

> Andy

> www.g4jnt.com

>

>

> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_cam

> paign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.

> www.avg.com

> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_cam

> paign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

 

--

 




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