Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 4810438000087; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 08:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1TqkaL-0000Ks-BH for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:11:49 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1TqkaK-0000Kj-FI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:11:48 +0000 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TqkaH-00039Q-9W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:11:47 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.14.171]) by mwinf5d05 with ME id jRBQ1k00B3hSEUJ03RBQrA; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 14:11:24 +0100 Message-ID: <0BF916C475A048AFBE6EBEE74C9B639A@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <0A4D88A68FCB4F22A2BC40825788A6AA@AGB> <1357150913.48886.YahooMailNeo@web133204.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <63C5AFAA6F8C41A7936F2069D38FAC01@AGB> <81FED2F455C94E45B3BE41353A6D53BC@W1KW> <52B2628757094925BA8206A2C0D9640B@AGB> <1357173044.69099.YahooMailNeo@web133203.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <48BBF8CC892E4164B0E96E856BB44972@gnat> <50E57089.1040109@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> In-Reply-To: <50E57089.1040109@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:11:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: As You Like It ! "How bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes!" - (Act V, Scene II). some things never change ? [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.29 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: a4b244543500b5090c8ff3d6105c38aa Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01CDE9B3.D4B6A5D0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608c50e58a123965 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01CDE9B3.D4B6A5D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As You Like It ! "How bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's = eyes!" - (Act V, Scene II). some things never change ? G.. From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:50 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? How many OMs are able to radiate a CW signal on 630m that is audible in = a reasonable distance? Here in a radius of 1000km from central EU, maybe = 50? How many of them would be even able to radiate a SSB signal that is = comfortable readable in some distance, so that at least a few SSB QSO = partners can be found? 10? How many of them would be willing to populate the band for a longer time = (i.e. so that it it worth to discuss about SSB on MF), "job-, XYL-, = grandchildren-, neighbour-, motivation-, other projects-, QRM/QRN-, = WX-permitting"? X! I guess that the number X is very close to 0! There are a number of ideas for short experiments, now that the band is = new. Some of these experiments will be done. But the time that is spent = to discuss about these modes (and all the problems) will be longer than = the time the mode will be done. I do not really expect problems from stations working SSB for a few = hours per year whose CW signal would be 10 dB above the noise in a 250 = Hz CW bandwidth. Lastly people will concentrate on exciting modes like CW, the rest will = come and go. 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 03.01.2013 03:06, schrieb jcraig@mun.ca:=20 Hi Alan, Group,=20 Memories of QRM from SSB are still fresh in my mind. You certainly=20 don't need any endorsement from me, but I think your views are well=20 stated and should be heeded.=20 73=20 Joe VO1NA=20 On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Alan Melia wrote:=20 Just a thought.....when it gets totally washed out with SSB all 24 = hours how are you going to clean it out? People in general dont follow = gentlemen's agreements they were not party too.....and "it doesnt say I = cant in the licence".=20 I fear that, though what you suggest would work, it might encourage = mayhem. I would prefer to see those who feel uncomfortable using a morse = key on other bands, improve their skill on 475 by not being under = HF-band like pressure. I dont listen there now but 10MHz used to be a = guide for what you can expect wher SSB is not actually banned from a = narrow band. Dont forget, to SSB-only ops CW is just interference. The = plus point is they will have to make a transverter first, but then a few = badly aligned tranverters on SSB could be a disaster. I think the = Swedish station was was Gus SM?BHZ, and the SSB wiped out several DX CW = qsos I knew of at the time. It was a commercial licence not an amateur = one, so voice ID may have been in the conditions.=20 Alan=20 G3NYK=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M0FMT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:30 AM=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20 Hi Graham Geri and all=20 Warren has seen SSB first hand on the MF QRG and we have this side = also.There was an SM station (call sign forgotten?) in the early days of = 500 that added an SSB anouncement on his beacon and it worked well.=20 To my spec. :- "One SSB channel at the high edge of the band only = used during daylight hours no DXing!" add " Use VOX, no monologuing = allowed" to be a laissez faire operation no band plan, but fair play!.73 = es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX=20 From: Graham =20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:48=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20 Geri=20 800 Hz B/W ... May be this is something 'Wolf' can code = for you ? a b/w compression / expansion module in SL , to limit = the tx b/w to 800 Hz must be possible to divide by 3 and mult = by 3 with a linear shift as well ?=20 G..=20 From: Holger 'Geri', DK8KW - DI2BO - W1KW=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:36 PM=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20 Hi,=20 I kind of like the idea of an SSB channel. I just pulled out the = conditions of my first secial license for 160m from 1973 or 1974. That = said 1815 to 1835 kHz with 10 Watts in CW, additionally one SSB channel = for 1832 to 1835 kHz, so why not trying this on 630m, too? Here in = Germany we are currently limited to 800 Hz bandwidt but I am sure we can = sork towards a special license under certain conditions such as daylight = operation only .. sounds good to me!=20 Vy 73=20 Geri, DK8KW=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:58 PM=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20 Hi Pete=20 Its quite obvious that the allocation is quite able to = support normal armature activity , and why not ? its no longer = a experimental allocation , its just the same as 10 or top band , = un expected results today though ! ssb sounds odd , may be as = the path is stable , sstv ? must be a narrow mode , and the = 'new' digital voice is 2KHz , but that requires a linear Tx = path=20 As for the band edge=20 I'm straining to find a engineering reason , that = wspr and qrss has decided to run mid band ? Im sure users had a = reasonable discussion at the introduction of the band , to place = the modes at the edges , with live cw a the lower portion ? its = well know that these long carrier modes cause disruption to = other band users and are well placed at the band edges , = 'vanity beacons' is a term I have seen noted in referral, as = occupancy increases , by users not linked or even aware of = discussions taking place on these groups , i'm sure there will be = problems leading to the introduction of band plan's , for some = the plans form part of the licence conditions ..=20 Is Opera a vanity system ? , actually no, it compliments = ros- data mode in that the ave s/n readings can be used to = determine if a path will support the data mode , each having = the same averaging s/n reading taken along the time line ,=20 73 -G..=20 From: M0FMT=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:21 PM=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20 Hi all=20 One SSB channel at the high edge of the band only used during = daylight hours no DXing!=20 73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX=20 From: Graham =20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 16:13=20 Subject: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20 Quite intriguing propagation on this 'new' band=20 From some unexpected early 600 mile + Opera decodes = last night , to several wspr TA decodes , [G8's again ..] = to today's test with Gary using USB-SSB voice ,=20 Where as at 1300z we had 5/9 signals each way as = expected over 25 miles , GI3PDN Ray , called on CW , to give = a report of 5/9 across the Irish Sea , some 100 miles for our = two signals , his CW also in the 5/9/9 region, one wonders how = far inland the signals travelled ?=20 After a short 3 way qso, we closed the test round 1330z = , may not of been quite as sociable after dark , but with a = small Ae , 40 x 70 ft iv L and 35 ft Top load vert , 50 = watts pep , results defiantly superior to say 160 mtrs using = the same Ae's=20 73 -G=20 G0NBD=20 This electronic communication is governed by the terms and conditions = at=20 = http://www.mun.ca/cc/policies/electronic_communications_disclaimer_2012.p= hp=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01CDE9B3.D4B6A5D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As You Like It !
 
"How bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another = man's=20 eyes!" - (Act V, Scene II).
 
some  things  never  change  ?
 
G..

From: Stefan = Sch=E4fer
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:50 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band = ?

How many OMs are able to radiate a CW signal on 630m that = is=20 audible in a reasonable distance? Here in a radius of 1000km from = central EU,=20 maybe 50?
How many of them would be even able to radiate a SSB signal = that is=20 comfortable readable in some distance, so that at least a few SSB QSO = partners=20 can be found? 10?
How many of them would be willing to populate the = band for=20 a longer time (i.e. so that it it worth to discuss about SSB on = MF),=20 "job-, XYL-, grandchildren-, neighbour-, motivation-, other projects-, = QRM/QRN-,=20 WX-permitting"? X!
I guess that the number X is very close to = 0!

There=20 are a number of ideas for short experiments, now that the band is new. = Some of=20 these experiments will be done. But the time that is spent to discuss = about=20 these modes (and all the problems) will be longer than the time the mode = will be=20 done.
I do not really expect problems from stations working SSB for a = few=20 hours per year whose CW signal would be 10 dB above the noise in a 250 = Hz CW=20 bandwidth.

Lastly people will concentrate on exciting modes like = CW, the=20 rest will come and go.

73, Stefan/DK7FC

Am 03.01.2013 = 03:06,=20 schrieb jcraig@mun.ca:=20
Hi Alan, Group,

Memories of QRM from SSB are still = fresh=20 in my mind. You certainly
don't need any endorsement from me, but = I think=20 your views are well
stated and should be heeded.

73 =
Joe VO1NA=20

On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Alan Melia wrote:

Just a thought.....when it gets totally = washed out=20 with SSB all 24 hours how are you going to clean it out? People in = general=20 dont follow gentlemen's agreements they were not party too.....and = "it=20 doesnt say I cant in the licence".

I fear that, though what = you=20 suggest would work, it might encourage mayhem. I would prefer to see = those=20 who feel uncomfortable using a morse key on other bands, improve = their skill=20 on 475 by not being under HF-band like pressure. I dont listen there = now but=20 10MHz used to be a guide for what you can expect wher SSB is not = actually=20 banned from a narrow band. Dont forget, to SSB-only ops CW is just=20 interference. The plus point is they will have to make a transverter = first,=20 but then a few badly aligned tranverters on SSB could be a disaster. = I think=20 the Swedish station was was Gus SM?BHZ, and the SSB wiped out = several DX CW=20 qsos I knew of at the time. It was a commercial licence not an = amateur one,=20 so voice ID may have been in the conditions.

Alan
G3NYK=20

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: M0FMT=20
 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:30 AM =
 Subject: Re:=20 LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?


 Hi Graham Geri and = all=20

 Warren has seen SSB first hand on the MF QRG and we = have this=20 side also.There was an SM station (call sign forgotten?) in the = early days=20 of 500 that added an SSB anouncement on his beacon and it worked = well.=20

 To my spec. :- "One SSB channel at the high edge of = the band=20 only used during daylight hours no DXing!" add " Use VOX, no = monologuing=20 allowed" to be a laissez faire operation no band plan, but fair = play!.73 es=20 GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX

   From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>=20
   To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
   Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:48 =
  =20 Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ? =



  =20 Geri

   800 Hz  B/W ...  May  be = this =20 is  something  'Wolf' can  code  for  = you  ?=20 a  b/w   compression / expansion  module in = SL  ,=20 to  limit the  tx b/w  to  800  Hz = must =20 be  possible to  divide  by  3  and =20 mult  by  3  with a  linear shift  as  = well ?=20

   G..


   From: Holger = 'Geri', DK8KW=20 - DI2BO - W1KW
   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 = 8:36 PM=20
   To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
   Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat band ?=20


   Hi,

   I kind of like the = idea of=20 an SSB channel. I just pulled out the conditions of my first secial = license=20 for 160m from 1973 or 1974. That said 1815 to 1835 kHz with 10 Watts = in CW,=20 additionally one SSB channel for 1832 to 1835 kHz, so why not trying = this on=20 630m, too? Here in Germany we are currently limited to 800 Hz = bandwidt but I=20 am sure we can sork towards a special license under certain = conditions such=20 as daylight operation only .. sounds good to me! =

   Vy 73=20

   Geri, DK8KW

     = -----=20 Original Message -----
     From: Graham=20
     To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
     Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 8:58 = PM=20
     Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat = band ?=20


     Hi Pete=20

     Its  quite  obvious = that =20 the  allocation  is   quite  able  = to =20 support  normal   armature  activity , and  = why  not  ? its no  longer a experimental  = allocation ,=20 its just the  same  as   10  or top  = band , un=20 expected  results  today though !  ssb  = sounds =20 odd  , may  be  as  the  path is  = stable=20 ,   sstv ?  must  be a  narrow  = mode  ,=20 and the  'new'  digital  voice  is 2KHz  , = but=20 that  requires  a  linear  Tx  path=20

     As  for  the  band = edge=20

      I'm  straining  = to =20 find  a  engineering   reason  , that  = wspr  and  qrss  has  decided to  run mid = band ? Im=20 sure  users had a  reasonable discussion  at = the =20 introduction  of the  band , to  place the  = modes =20 at the  edges , with  live  cw a the  = lower =20 portion ?  its well  know  that  these  = long =20 carrier  modes  cause  disruption  to  = other =20 band  users and  are  well  placed  at = the =20 band  edges  , 'vanity  beacons'  is a term I = have =20 seen  noted  in referral, as occupancy  increases , = by=20 users  not  linked or  even  aware  = of  =20 discussions   taking place on these  groups , i'm = sure=20 there  will  be  problems  leading  = to =20 the  introduction  of  band plan's  , for =20 some  the  plans  form  part of the  = licence =20 conditions ..

     Is Opera  a = vanity =20 system ? , actually  no, it  compliments   = ros- =20 data  mode in that  the  ave s/n   = readings =20 can be used to  determine  if  a  path  = will =20 support  the  data  mode , each  having  = the =20 same   averaging  s/n  reading  taken along = the  time  line  ,

     = 73 -G..=20









     = From: M0FMT=20
     Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:21 = PM=20
     To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
     Subject: Re: LF: 477 A local SSB chat = band ?=20


     Hi all =

    =20 One SSB channel at the high edge of the band only used during = daylight hours=20 no DXing!


     73 es GL es HNY Pete = M0FMT=20 IO91UX

       From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>=20
       To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
       Sent: Wednesday, 2 January = 2013,=20 16:13
       Subject: LF: 477 A = local SSB=20 chat band ?



       = Quite =20 intriguing  propagation  on this  'new'  band=20

       From  some =20 unexpected  early  600 mile  +   = Opera =20 decodes  last  night  , to  several  =20 wspr   TA  decodes ,  [G8's  again=20 ..]     to   today's   = test =20 with  Gary  using   USB-SSB  voice ,=20

       Where  as = at  =20 1300z   we  had  5/9  signals each  = way =20 as  expected   over 25 miles  ,  = GI3PDN  =20 Ray  , called  on CW , to   give  a  = report=20 of  5/9 across  the  Irish   Sea  , = some =20 100  miles  for  our  two  signals , = his  CW=20 also  in the  5/9/9  region, one  wonders =20 how  far  inland  the signals  travelled  ? =

       After a  short = 3 =20 way  qso,  we closed the  test  round = 1330z =20 ,  may  not of been  quite  as  = sociable =20 after  dark  , but  with a  small  Ae  = , 40 x=20 70  ft  iv L  and   35  ft  Top=20 load  vert  , 50  watts  pep  , = results =20 defiantly   superior  to  say  160  = mtrs =20 using  the  same  Ae's=20

       73 -G=20
       G0NBD=20










This = electronic=20 communication is governed by the terms and conditions at
http://www.mun.ca/cc/policies/electronic_communications_discl= aimer_2012.php=20
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01CDE9B3.D4B6A5D0--