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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id x7si14804030wjr.19.2013.12.28.13.54.09 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:54:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Vx1QE-0007iD-V4 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:27:50 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Vx1QD-0007i4-QG for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:27:49 +0000 Received: from smtpout2.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.42] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Vx1QB-0008Ct-4Q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:27:48 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.27.191.56]) by mwinf5d24 with ME id 79Tk1n00H1DTdt6039TkUd; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:27:46 +0100 Message-ID: <0A1731243865454ABFA1975E3C503CDD@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <52BDD7FF.9060300@freenet.de>,<1CAAB4802E504192AD39BC56B0A49ECB@AGB> <52BE0218.7080008@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <52BE0218.7080008@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:27:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Thats true, But in this case , Its more likely to be classified as 'Company Confidential' Take pactor-4 and Ros-hf , both use the same SS techniques , but where as pactor-4 is a one qso one channel mode , Ros-hf has a cdma layer in the software , which allows multiple access to the same channel , ie much higher b/w/user efficiency [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.42 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 1.3 GAPPY_SUBJECT Subject: contains G.a.p.p.y-T.e.x.t X-Scan-Signature: a9dd8873b29a25c58491fb236e215a68 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0147_01CF0413.A592E130" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=5.0 tests=GAPPY_SUBJECT,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2684 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0147_01CF0413.A592E130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thats true,=20 But in this case , Its more likely to be classified as 'Company = Confidential'=20 Take pactor-4 and Ros-hf , both use the same SS techniques , but = where as pactor-4 is a one qso one channel mode , Ros-hf = has a cdma layer in the software , which allows multiple access to = the same channel , ie much higher b/w/user efficiency Now traditionally , to separate users in cdma each needs a = separate Pn-key number , but ros-hf any station may decode any = other station , or just the one by selection at the Rx , when = selected it affords a packet like one to one qso , with other = qso's on the same channel , but all at the same rate and same = s/n level , ok that's SS , but how is the separation achieved .. = ? that facility would make p-4 very desirable =20 Commercial value is the deciding factor in this case ? G,=20 From: g4gvw=20 Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:41 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 Surely, Graham, this is dependent on the terms of whatever licence the = IP is released. It might be relevant to argue these matters against the = terms of the various GPL that have been defined. Richard Stallman = presents some good arguments that are particularly relevant to Open = Source etc. 73=20 On 27/12/13 21:23, Graham wrote: Its the old source code argument=20 There are plenty of locked systems in use , source code comes under = 'IP' Intellectual Property rights , there is no need to disclose as = long as all can use the same , sure some would like to see = 'how' but that's another angle , same with encryption, DSSS numeric = based data modes like Olivia , chip64, contessa , ros hf as long as = the software has the same keys then that meets the requirements=20 The Opera decoder is a data decoder , Marcus is running = correlation , pattern matching , two different things entirely , one = has high equipment over heads , the other uses anti noise/ fec/afc = software routines to negate hardware affects on system performance and = counteract propagation conditions , Opera is a averaging system and = requires for a decode , the average of the min s/n , from 50% of = the data randomly dispersed along the time line , ie first 50 last = 50 or any 50%=20 G,=20 From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 8:53 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 What your saying is for those of us wanting to improve things go play = with the other systems and leave OPERA just as it is? Bob =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 20:39:58 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 There are plenty of commercial data mode systems in use on the = Ham bands that are locked and not publicised , from my experience , = the locked systems seem to give a superior level of performance to = the open code versions , pactor-4 being a good example , using = modern ss techniques achieves high data/power ratio , but missing = is the cdma layer that would enhance b/w user efficiency , but = that exists in another locked data mode , which is free=20 So where /what is the problem ? G,=20 From: wolf_dl4yhf=20 Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 7:41 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 Thanks for forwarding the message Bob - so I won't spend any effort in = implementing Opera myself if Markus's DS algorithm is really embedded in = the Ros-software. Despite the fact that I don't like, and will not use, the original = Opera software myself as long as its author makes such a secret of it, = leaving it to others to reverse-engineer the algorithms. Cheers, Wolf . Am 27.12.2013 19:31, schrieb Bob Raide: Trevor and all; Especially #1!!! If that alone could be accomplished the rest later = would do just fine. Bob, WG2XRS/4-4000 meters, WE2XEB-2200 meters, = WE2XGR/6-630/600 meters-W2ZM... =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- To: O_P_E_R_A_@yahoogroups.com CC: tsmithers@cix.co.uk From: tsmithers@cix.co.uk Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:48:00 +0000 Subject: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 =20 A few thoughts for Opera enhancements VLF to 160m (1) Deep Search Detector built in to existing Opera system with = ability to run alongside existing=20 Op decoders and report directly to PSK reporter=20 (2) Reinstate the dual receive function without having to open = multiple instances of the software. (3) Dynamically resizable screen or replace the dials with led bar = type indicators - would make=20 the overall screen size a little smaller. (4) Option to "tear off" the waterfall to enable positioning on = another part of the monitor screen -=20 like wsprx for example. Trevor G0KTN __._,_.___Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start = a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) =20 Recent Activity: a.. New Members 3=20 Visit Your Group=20 =20 Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest =95 Unsubscribe =95 Terms of Use = =95 Send us Feedback=20 . =20 __,_._,___ --=20 73 de pat g4gvw qth felixstowe, uk (east coast, county of suffolk) ------=_NextPart_000_0147_01CF0413.A592E130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thats true,
 
But in this  case , Its  more  likely to  = be =20 classified  as  'Company Confidential'
 
Take pactor-4  and  Ros-hf  , both  use = the =20 same  SS techniques   , but  where  as =20 pactor-4   is  a  one  qso  one =20 channel  mode  , Ros-hf  has a  cdma layer  in=20 the  software  , which  allows  multiple access to = the =20 same  channel , ie  much higher  b/w/user = efficiency
 
Now  traditionally , to  separate   users  = in=20 cdma  each needs  a separate  Pn-key number , but  = ros-hf=20 any  station  may  decode  any other =20 station  , or  just the  one by  = selection  at=20 the  Rx   , when  selected  it =20 affords  a  packet like  one  to  one  = qso  ,=20 with  other  qso's  on the  same  channel  = , but=20 all  at the  same  rate  and  same s/n =20 level  , ok that's  SS  , but  how is the =20 separation  achieved .. ?   that facility =  would =20 make p-4  very  desirable  
 
Commercial  value is the  deciding  factor  in = this=20 case ?
 
G,
 
 

From: g4gvw
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

Surely, Graham, this is dependent on the terms of = whatever=20 licence the IP is released. It might be relevant to argue these matters = against=20 the terms of the various GPL that have been defined. Richard Stallman = presents=20 some good arguments that are particularly relevant to Open Source = etc.

73=20
On 27/12/13 21:23, Graham wrote:
Its  the old source  code  = argument=20
 
There are plenty of  locked  = systems  in=20 use , source code comes under  'IP' Intellectual Property = rights ,=20 there is no  need  to  disclose  as  long = as =20 all  can  use  the  same , sure =20 some  would  like to  see  'how'  but = that's=20 another angle  , same  with  encryption, DSSS=20 numeric based data  modes like  Olivia , chip64, = contessa ,=20 ros hf   as long  as  the  software  has = the  same  keys  then that  meets the  = requirements=20
 
The Opera  decoder is  a  = data =20 decoder ,  Marcus is  running  correlation , = pattern =20 matching , two  different things entirely , one has high =20 equipment  over heads , the  other  uses anti = noise/=20 fec/afc  software routines to  negate hardware affects = on=20 system performance and counteract propagation conditions , Opera  = is=20 a  averaging  system and  requires  for a decode , = the  average  of  the  min s/n  , from 50% of = the  data  randomly dispersed along the  time  = line , ie=20 first 50  last 50  or  any 50%
 
G,
 

From: Bob = Raide
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 8:53 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: RE: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

What your saying is for those of us wanting to = improve=20 things go play with the other systems and leave OPERA just as it = is?=20 Bob
 
From: g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: = Fri, 27 Dec=20 2013 20:39:58 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera = upgrades for=20 2014

There  are plenty of  commercial  data  = mode =20 systems  in use  on the  Ham bands  that  are = locked  and not  publicised , from  my experience , = the =20 locked systems seem to  give a  superior level  of = performance=20  to the  open    code  versions , = pactor-4 =20 being a  good  example , using  modern  ss=20 techniques  achieves  high data/power  ratio , = but =20 missing  is the  cdma  layer that  would =20 enhance  b/w  user efficiency  , but  = that =20 exists in another locked data  mode , which is  free
 
So  where /what  is the  problem ?
 
G,

From: wolf_dl4yhf
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 7:41 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

Thanks for forwarding the message Bob = - so I=20 won't spend any effort in implementing Opera myself if Markus's DS = algorithm=20 is really embedded in the Ros-software.
Despite the fact that I = don't like,=20 and will not use, the original Opera software myself as long as its = author=20 makes such a secret of it, leaving it to others to reverse-engineer = the=20 algorithms.

Cheers,
  Wolf .

Am 27.12.2013 = 19:31,=20 schrieb Bob Raide:
Trevor and all;
Especially #1!!!  If that = alone could=20 be accomplished the rest later would do just fine. Bob,=20 WG2XRS/4-4000 meters, WE2XEB-2200 meters, WE2XGR/6-630/600=20 meters-W2ZM...
 
To: O_P_E_R_A_@yahoogroups.com
CC: tsmithers@cix.co.uk
From: tsmithers@cix.co.uk
Date: Fri, 27 = Dec 2013=20 16:48:00 +0000
Subject: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for = 2014

 =20
A few thoughts for Opera enhancements VLF to=20 160m

(1) Deep Search Detector built in to existing Opera = system with=20 ability to run alongside existing
Op decoders and report = directly to PSK=20 reporter

(2) Reinstate the dual receive function without = having to=20 open multiple instances of the software.

(3) Dynamically = resizable=20 screen or replace the dials with led bar type indicators - would = make=20
the overall screen size a little smaller.

(4) Option to = "tear=20 off" the waterfall to enable positioning on another part of the = monitor=20 screen -
like wsprx for example.

Trevor = G0KTN


__._,_.___
Reply via web = post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic = Messages in this = topic (1)=20
Recent Activity:=20 New Members = 3
Visit Your Group =
=20
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest =95 Unsubscribe =95 Terms of Use =95 Send us Feedback
.

__,_._,___


--=20
73 de pat g4gvw
qth felixstowe, uk
(east coast, county of suffolk)
------=_NextPart_000_0147_01CF0413.A592E130--