Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN, FREEMAIL_FROM,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: EATSERVER: mailn 1166; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id v7LEQqxa011369 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 16:26:54 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1djnaC-0008RY-Nh for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 15:21:36 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1djnaC-0008RP-07 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 15:21:36 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1djna5-0001ya-UW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 15:21:34 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.98]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id jnYZdFxZ39W8vjna0dmFpN; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 14:21:24 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1503325284; bh=UyvHHPDtP3CfMGUkxz0Qd/CB/7xGBuFEvWqLHnHBLno=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=QcTsk5E4LbGhNi5L4/wTDm5te/T11ERnqXSG2Og3NuG+eBc4z9v58w5t6Jmt/kpBO MTXxe2QsqBpBd0+XZtijuS7clMwsBGENHBzhlomTKRoDwCnPZkJRhLvDkxo/jtJfG9 rIgIxl3YfDY2GKBtJ7EeBlgMRfe2n6rqCWoXq5NJZwM8xc0vttGQ4Ar7ZhDE5o9mOS hv/cZtKu+fBjr0WYF9tUzIJ9np4MuCzP2iYUf82rtaTZK5ryYe0d5UryWu2FeRct+D a8OOcvCeLb0Vffu6ClsNHaIyXa72R4w+hwFlAxIKaDqPAsG3wuphd+TlCUf1WrGI0Q acHnHN9m9yFcw== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:380d:2340:1a77:91a4]) by resomta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id jnZydKy6Y13A8jnZzdmf2t; Mon, 21 Aug 2017 14:21:23 +0000 From: To: References: <15e04da1bc1-c03-90c@webjas-vad055.srv.aolmail.net> <15e04db3b5a-c05-4e12@webjas-vab238.srv.aolmail.net> In-Reply-To: <15e04db3b5a-c05-4e12@webjas-vab238.srv.aolmail.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:21:21 -0400 Message-ID: <070701d31a88$c40d5980$4c280c80$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJgATLXltGhdT8+/hLOO+M3VhY6k6F1DGKw Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNytgiVNQZMWnDBQ9VFMJlnLt95IC4mKBhuMz3e7O87KYH7PZwvTXcGAJVI3NN/fm24l9QRnYn25V3Oicz4lz3TTHuUU862xwUojKWFggYmjL6wxJ4z3 GIllVjQDiXfRGx+XaIeb1sw5fR0z1kgooRE= X-Scan-Signature: 50abd45de4f0c3e2f43f634f1225d940 Subject: RE: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! - fieldstrength comparison Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0708_01D31A67.3CFE2A80" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12425 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0708_01D31A67.3CFE2A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Markus, =20 The FDTD analysis has been held up by the eclipse preparations = (phase-stable VLF/LF transmitters and receivers). Back to normal = tomorrow, and the FDTD diurnal should be done early next week. The = dual-path data points by Stefan and yourself at 4470 Hz, and their = relationship to your 3675 Hz and 8270 Hz data make me very eager for the = FDTD results. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 8:54 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! - fieldstrength comparison =20 Comparing the peaks again in 31 uHz after 9 hours of carrier = accumulation, it looks like the level difference was only 7 to 8 dB, = implying that the stated 2 dB propagation loss over 1/r is probably not = true. The main source of error is the noise floor which is causing a = significant uncertainty for amplitude measurements: Even for peak with = 14 dB SNR ("five-sigma"), the standard deviation for the magnitude due = to the in-phase noise component would be 1/5/sqrt(2) =3D 0.14, implying = an uncertainty range of -3 to +2 dB at 95% confidence.=20 I also have some doubt now about my earlier result of +5.5 dB gain on = 3675 Hz, which was based on a 8270 Hz reference, more than an octave = away. The level of Stefan's peaks on 4470 and 3675 seemed to be quite = similar, implying that the difference between path losses would not be = more than the ~ 2 dB ERP difference.=20 Jim, any results yet from FDTD simulations of the 226 km W-E path? 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Markus Vester An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 20. Aug 2017 21:34 Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! - fieldstrength comparison This test is going surprisingly well. producing beautiful twin peaks on = 4470.005 and 4470.0025 on the DL0AO grabber. It looks like my signal is = about 10 dB stronger there. Our antenna currents are similar today, but = I guess the effective height and ERP are 5 to 6 dB higher at DK7FC. Thus = propagation between Heidelberg and Amberg would be 13.5 - 5.5 -10 =3D -2 = dB with reference to groundwave alone. This is somewhat surprising, = given that a similar (but probably less reliable) calculation for 3675 = Hz had indicated a +5.5 dB ionospheric gain. All the best, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-- Von: Markus Vester An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 20. Aug 2017 15:37 Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! I have managed to resonate my antenna and started a carrier on 4470.0025 = Hz since 13:07 UT. Antenna current is 0.16 A into 8 m effective height. = Hope that it might also become visible on DL0AO, and perhaps provide an = improved calibration reference for propagation from Heidelberg. =20 Best 73, Markus -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Markus Vester An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 20. Aug 2017 11:11 Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! Hi Stefan, this morning, an unambiguous peak has come up on the DL0AO cardioid in = 31 uHz:=20 http://df6nm.bplaced.net/dl0ao/VLFgrabber/vlfgrabber_dl0ao_test.htm The signal level (-140 dB) seems to be similar to that previously = observed on 3675 Hz (noting that the gain of the synthetic cardioid = summation has since been reduced by 6 dB to make it equal to the single = antennas). We can probably hope for improved SNR during the day. Well done again! Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Sa, 19. Aug 2017 15:01 Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! ...Rather 5 uW. Am 19.08.2017 14:28, schrieb DK7FC:=20 Hello VLF,=20 I un-wound the defective stack of the large coil which was used for 2970 = Hz. It took about 4 hours to carefully unwound about 1000 turns, or = about 1 km of wire. The wire will be used for new coils which are = already planned. Now, the remaining 4 stacks should hold at least 15 kV. I connected the = coil to the antenna and found the resonance close to 4470 Hz.=20 Now i'm running (since 12 UTC) a carrier transmission on 4470.005 Hz. = The antenna current is just 150 mA. That's an ERP of about 3 uW. A first = signal on the 67 km band from here :-) Let's see how long it holds until there is the next fault :-/ Reports/Spectrograms welcome... As usual there is a monitoring of the signal in 3.5 km distance from my = tree grabber: = http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_VLF_Grabber2.html 73, Stefan Am 13.08.2017 22:17, schrieb DK7FC:=20 The repetition of yesterdays message failed. At 15:38 UTC the safety = function tripped. I've just been on the roof, when re-starting the = transmission i can see a spark in the center of one of the stacks. So = now there is another one which has a flash over! :-( It must be replaced, which is a lot of work. So the tranmissions on 3675 = Hz will stopp for some time. At least we have some carrier detections = and even EbNaut decodes. I need to think about a different coil concept.... More current, more = voltage, more power, more more more! ------=_NextPart_000_0708_01D31A67.3CFE2A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Markus,

 

The FDTD analysis has been held up by the eclipse preparations = (phase-stable VLF/LF transmitters and receivers). Back to normal = tomorrow, and the FDTD diurnal should be done early next week. The = dual-path data points by Stefan and yourself at 4470 Hz, and their = relationship to your 3675 Hz and 8270 Hz data make me very eager for the = FDTD results.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW =C2=A0

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 8:54 AM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: VLF: Carrier on = 4470.005 Hz! - fieldstrength comparison

 

C= omparing the peaks again in 31 uHz after 9 hours of carrier = accumulation, it looks like the level difference was only 7 to 8 = dB, implying that the stated 2 dB propagation loss over 1/r is = probably not true. The main source of error is the noise floor = which is causing a significant uncertainty for amplitude = measurements: Even for peak with 14 dB SNR ("five-sigma"), = the standard deviation for the magnitude due to the in-phase = noise component would be 1/5/sqrt(2) =3D 0.14, implying an = uncertainty range of -3 to +2 dB at 95% = confidence. 

I also have some doubt now about my = earlier result of +5.5 dB gain on 3675 Hz, which was based = on a 8270 Hz reference, more than an octave away. The = level of Stefan's peaks on 4470 and 3675 seemed to be quite similar, = implying that the difference between path losses would not be = more than the ~ 2 dB ERP difference. 

Jim, any results yet = from FDTD simulations of the 226 km W-E path?

73, Markus = (DF6NM)
    


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche = Mitteilung-----
Von: Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
An: = rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= >
Verschickt: So, 20. Aug 2017 21:34
Betreff: Re: VLF: = Carrier on 4470.005 Hz! - fieldstrength = comparison

T= his test is going surprisingly well. producing beautiful twin peaks on = 4470.005 and 4470.0025 on the DL0AO grabber. It looks like my signal = is about 10 dB stronger there. Our antenna currents are similar = today, but I guess the effective height and ERP are 5 to 6 dB = higher at DK7FC. Thus propagation between Heidelberg and = Amberg would be 13.5 - 5.5 -10 =3D -2 dB with reference = to groundwave alone. This is somewhat surprising, given that a = similar (but probably less reliable) calculation for 3675 Hz had = indicated a +5.5 dB ionospheric gain.

All the best,
Markus = (DF6NM)


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung--
Von: Markus = Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
An: rsgb_lf_group = <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: = So, 20. Aug 2017 15:37
Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 = Hz!

=

I= have managed to resonate my antenna and started a carrier = on 4470.0025 Hz since 13:07 UT. Antenna current is 0.16 A into = 8 m effective height. Hope that it might also become visible on = DL0AO, and perhaps provide an improved calibration reference = for propagation from Heidelberg.  

Best = 73,
Markus


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- =
Von: Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com>
An: rsgb_lf_group = <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: = So, 20. Aug 2017 11:11
Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 = Hz!

H= i Stefan,

this morning, an unambiguous peak has come up = on the DL0AO cardioid in 31 uHz: 
http://df6nm.bplaced.net/dl0ao/VLFgrabber/vlfgrabber_dl= 0ao_test.htm
The signal level (-140 dB) seems to be similar = to that previously observed on 3675 Hz (noting that the gain = of the synthetic cardioid summation has since been reduced by 6 dB to = make it equal to the single antennas).  We can probably hope = for improved SNR during the day.

Well done = again!

Best 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)   


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche = Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC <selberdenken@posteo.de>
An: rsgb_lf_group = <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: = Sa, 19. Aug 2017 15:01
Betreff: Re: VLF: Carrier on 4470.005 = Hz!

.= ..Rather 5 uW.

Am 19.08.2017 14:28, schrieb DK7FC: =

H= ello VLF,

I un-wound the defective stack of the large coil which = was used for 2970 Hz. It took about 4 hours to carefully unwound about = 1000 turns, or about 1 km of wire. The wire will be used for new coils = which are already planned.

Now, the remaining 4 stacks should = hold at least 15 kV. I connected the coil to the antenna and found the = resonance close to 4470 Hz.
Now i'm running (since 12 UTC) a carrier = transmission on 4470.005 Hz. The antenna current is just 150 = mA. That's an ERP of about 3 uW. A first signal on the 67 = km band from here :-)
Let's see how long it holds until there is = the next fault :-/

Reports/Spectrograms welcome...

As = usual there is a monitoring of the signal in 3.5 km distance from my = tree grabber: http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_VLF= _Grabber2.html

73, Stefan

Am 13.08.2017 22:17, schrieb = DK7FC:

T= he repetition of yesterdays message failed. At 15:38 UTC the safety = function tripped. I've just been on the roof, when re-starting the = transmission i can see a spark in the center of one of the stacks. So = now there is another one which has a flash over! :-(
It must be = replaced, which is a lot of work. So the tranmissions on 3675 Hz will = stopp for some time. At least we have some carrier detections and even = EbNaut decodes.

I need to think about a different coil = concept.... More current, more voltage, more power, more more = more!

------=_NextPart_000_0708_01D31A67.3CFE2A80--