Return-Path: Received: from mtain-de10.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-de10.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.210]) by air-di02.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDI024-eabd4b60bb6630f; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:17:10 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-de10.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 5BCF8380002A1; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NaGB4-0006q3-25 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:15:58 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NaGB3-0006pu-Ca for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:15:57 +0000 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NaGB0-0007eT-Uk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:15:57 +0000 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 Jan 2010 22:15:47 -0000 Received: from p5DD358AD.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO Clemens04) [93.211.88.173] by mail.gmx.net (mp055) with SMTP; 27 Jan 2010 23:15:47 +0100 X-Authenticated: #17214767 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18RYBxOTmAR1LW2jBIrDhrK4Bz1FLiyBntDQyd5ly YsckZraDOdJxGq Message-ID: <043401ca9f9e$4719e910$0201a8c0@Clemens04> From: "Clemens Paul" To: References: <038501ca9f97$a44761a0$0201a8c0@Clemens04> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 23:15:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3598 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.46000000000000002,0.46000000000000002 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: RE: WSPR Reports Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0430_01CA9FA6.A7060EA0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40d24b60bb5d7910 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0430_01CA9FA6.A7060EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But the other point that Paul (or was it Clemens?) made is that the 't= rick' for magic SNR reports in WSPR is just to narrow the BW below 100Hz. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:50 PM Subject: Re: LF: RE: WSPR Reports Yes, as Paul suggests, it does look as if AGC is the culprit. Narr= owing the Rx bandwidth=20 right down to 7Hz won't make any difference to decoding ability provid= ed there is no AGC pumping=20 from out of (WSPR band) signals. (But any bandwidth selected below 7Hz will then knock out tone energ= y in the two outside=20 ones). Andy www.g4jnt.com 2010/1/27 Clemens Paul This phenomen,or rather bug,has been reported here by several list= members. I have made the same observations. Reducing the RX BW from e.g. 250Hz to something below 100Hz result= s in an increase of *reported* SNR of up to around 15dB! I've done some tests with a friend 20km away on 10m and we've foun= d out that the *real* SNR is not improved a bit or in other words an extreme weak wspr signa= l which was just below the decoding threshold in 250Hz BW coudn't be decoded with 20Hz BW= either. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:44 PM Subject: Re: LF: RE: WSPR Reports All the critical filtering is done in the software, and results= in a 1.46Hz noise=20 bandwidth - which is what the software measures and reports upon. Your observation that a narrower IF bandwidth is interesting. = Its most likely based on=20 the fact that typical signals are corrupted by pulsed non-gaussian noi= se which upsets the=20 frequency bin detection process, and upsets sync recovery. Andy www.g4jnt.com This email has been scanned for damaging side-effects by the hea= lth and safety police, is=20 guaranteed to contain no substances hazardous to health, but may contr= ibute to dissolving the=20 nether and polar regions 2010/1/27 Rik Strobbe Andy, maybe the "magic" lies in a narrow filter (either IF or audio)= . If I switch from a 2.5kHz (SSB) filter to a 270 Hz filter I al= so get a significant=20 increase in SNR values reported by WSPR. Unfortunaely it hardly affects the decoding level (minimal SNR= needed to get a positive=20 decode), that rises by almost the same amount. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org] namens Andy=20 Talbot [andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 27 januari 2010 21:26 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: LF: WSPR Reports Has F6CNI managed some sort of magic noise reduction system,= or is it a just a case of=20 being in a very quiet location... These are pretty impressive S/N values 2010-01-27 20:14 G4JNT 0.503875 +13 0 IO90iv= +23 0.200 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 391 243 2010-01-27 20:08 G4JNT 0.503875 +10 0 IO90iv= +23 0.200 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 391 243 2010-01-27 20:02 PA0A 0.503900 +15 0 JO33de= +37 5.012 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 502 312 2010-01-27 20:00 G4JNT 0.503875 +14 0 IO90iv= +23 0.200 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 391 243 2010-01-27 19:54 G7NKS 0.503920 -5 0 IO92ub= +20 0.100 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 422 262 2010-01-27 19:54 G4JNT 0.503875 +14 0 IO90iv= +23 0.200 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 391 243 2010-01-27 19:44 G4JNT 0.503875 +10 0 IO90iv= +23 0.200 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 391 243 2010-01-27 19:40 PA0A 0.503900 +15 0 JO33de= +37 5.012 F6CNI=20 JN19qb 502 312 Andy www.g4jnt.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Eingehende eMail ist virenfrei. Von AVG =FCberpr=FCft - www.avg.de Version: 9.0.733 / Virendatenbank: 271.1.1/2649 - Ausgabedatum:= 01/27/10 14:08:00 ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- Eingehende eMail ist virenfrei. Von AVG =FCberpr=FCft - www.avg.de Version: 9.0.733 / Virendatenbank: 271.1.1/2649 - Ausgabedatum: 01/2= 7/10 14:08:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0430_01CA9FA6.A7060EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But the other point that Paul (or was= it Clemens?)=20 made is that the 'trick' for
magic SNR reports in WSPR is just to= narrow the BW=20 below 100Hz.
 
73
Clemens
D= L4RAJ
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Andy Talbot
Sent: Wednesday, January 27,= 2010 10:50=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: WSPR Rep= orts

Yes, as Paul suggests, it does look as if AGC is the culprit.&n= bsp; =20 Narrowing the Rx bandwidth right down to 7Hz won't make any differen= ce to=20 decoding ability provided there is no AGC pumping from out of (WSPR= band)=20 signals.   
 
(But any bandwidth selected below 7Hz will then knock out tone= energy in=20 the two outside ones).
2010/1/27 Clemens Paul <= cpaul@gmx.net>
This phenomen,or rather bug,has= been reported=20 here by several list members.
I have made the same observations= .
Reducing the RX BW from e.g. 250H= z to something=20 below 100Hz results in
an increase of *reported* SNR of= up to around=20 15dB!
I've done some tests with a frien= d 20km away on=20 10m and we've found out that the *real* SNR
is not improved a bit or in other= words an=20 extreme weak wspr signal which was just below
the decoding threshold in 250Hz= BW coudn't be=20 decoded with 20Hz BW either.
 
73
Clemens
DL4RAJ&nb= sp;
----- Original Message -----
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, January= 27, 2010=20 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: WSPR= =20 Reports

All the critical filtering is done in the software, and res= ults in a=20 1.46Hz noise bandwidth - which is what the software measures and= reports=20 upon.
 
Your observation that a narrower IF bandwidth is=20 interesting.   Its most likely based on the fact that= typical=20 signals are corrupted by pulsed non-gaussian noise which upsets= the=20 frequency bin detection process, and upsets sync recovery.
 

Andy
www.g4jnt.com

This email has been= scanned for=20 damaging side-effects by the health and safety police, is guaran= teed to=20 contain no substances hazardous to health, but may contribute to= =20 dissolving the nether and polar regions


2010/1/27 Rik Strobbe &= lt;Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
An= dy,
 
maybe the "ma= gic" lies in a=20 narrow filter (either IF or audio).
If I switch from= a 2.5kHz (SSB)=20 filter to a 270 Hz filter I also get a significant increa= se in SNR=20 values reported by WSPR.
Unfortunaely it ha= rdly affects the=20 decoding level (minimal SNR needed to get a positive decode),= that rises=20 by almost the same amount.
 
73, Rik  ON7Y= D -=20 OR7T
Van: o= wner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Andy Talbot=20 [andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com]
Verzonden:=20 woensdag 27 januari 2010 21:26
Aan: rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: LF:=20 WSPR Reports

Has F6CNI managed some sort of magic noise reduction syst= em, or is=20 it a just a case of being in a very quiet location...
These are pretty impressive S/N values
 
 
 
=


Eingehende eMail ist virenfrei.
Von AVG =FCberpr= =FCft - www.avg= .de
Version:=20 9.0.733 / Virendatenbank: 271.1.1/2649 - Ausgabedatum: 01/27/10= 14:08:00=20



Eingehende eMail ist virenfrei.
Von AVG =FCberpr=FCft= - www.avg.de=20
Version: 9.0.733 / Virendatenbank: 271.1.1/2649 - Ausgabedatum:= 01/27/10=20 14:08:00
------=_NextPart_000_0430_01CA9FA6.A7060EA0--
 2010-01-27 20:14   G4JNT   0.503875   +13   0   IO90iv   +23   0.200   F6CNI   JN19qb   391   243 
 2010-01-27 20:08   G4JNT   0.503875   +10   0   IO90iv   +23   0.200   F6CNI   JN19qb   391   243 
 2010-01-27 20:02   PA0A   0.503900   +15   0   JO33de   +37   5.012   F6CNI   JN19qb   502   312 
 2010-01-27 20:00   G4JNT   0.503875   +14   0   IO90iv   +23   0.200   F6CNI   JN19qb   391   243 
 2010-01-27 19:54   G7NKS   0.503920   -5   0   IO92ub   +20   0.100   F6CNI   JN19qb   422   262 
 2010-01-27 19:54   G4JNT   0.503875   +14   0   IO90iv   +23   0.200   F6CNI   JN19qb   391   243 
 2010-01-27 19:44   G4JNT   0.503875   +10   0   IO90iv   +23   0.200   F6CNI   JN19qb   391   243 
 2010-01-27 19:40   PA0A   0.503900   +15   0   JO33de   +37   5.012   F6CNI   JN19qb   502   312