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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id c2si9499372wie.0.2013.12.26.14.39.13 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@comcast.net Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VwJCv-0002f4-Gi for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:15:09 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VwJCu-0002ev-FS for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:15:08 +0000 Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.16]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VwJCo-00081t-QJ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:15:07 +0000 Received: from omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.87]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6MT71n0081smiN4A1NF0jC; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:15:00 +0000 Received: from Owner ([166.137.182.216]) by omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 6NEe1n00a4gYbxS8gNEkpd; Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:14:55 +0000 From: "hvanesce" To: References: <2f507c1ff91346b2b8adba0518611224@kabelmail.de> <39966C71EF4543899F81399598C190F7@Extensa> <52BBFDC4.3010507@psk31.plus.com>,<52BC272F.7040803@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<52BC683B.5030107@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<52BC78F9.4000206@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 15:14:36 -0700 Message-ID: <02b601cf0287$e6429f00$b2c7dd00$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQF4gPz2ZsKVrt05Wvg22cCZ2bAEHQIVWltfAe40wD4CAiw8mQCLmYQeAIqD1XoCL62U6gLbUZ6UAddNmCWapBS1YA== Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1388096100; bh=tctoRa3433nTby2SwND0aMIjaGat6wooHpL9lRxBihY=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=EkWXcCyvOiHh8+Mug2YtA4QO7wwYz0Lc3ckOOMX2FtsCRJQ81KRFLpOSobmiFzhsA vfsjsCLWrLeXxO3tPXRbTrhAd1nNZYbJ6KlHhrX6ud4YIPudwCvRUTEUXwiNmAh19N WpidgyPVD0zHuf+t8oLwopcbXf9XJXeE9EYFktUJ7g2oj2+pL9jMqYJRgqf6tH9HOf m8fbSnKlWYhnA5FGySE1YQ0PJzwaEigDXqOVNPFBGNcAV3mHnAIdPX5XeKWHHwKD5A 3nlFLVQu6nB7OjgkZxXLeZpCbqsiZbD8qqCTo7ZEexCsL0DFa/7B1/fpyoFHbUMIND RJ7lBqEKBGraA== X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Bob and Stefan, Any thought of using Fluorinert to prevent coil breakdown? In indoor applications, if we didn't want a high-voltage (including 100kV and higher) coil (or transformer or connector or circuit board) to arc (including during wide-temperature range testing), we would simply drop the whole device (including batteries, power supply and modulator, if that made things more convenient) into fluorinert, without any insulation, encapsulation or coating on the circuit boards, coil or other components. We re-used the fluorinert without complications, and after removing items from fluorinert did not need to clean the previously-immersed items in any way. [...] Content analysis details: (1.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [76.96.30.16 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hvanesce[at]comcast.net) 1.6 SUBJ_ALL_CAPS Subject is all capitals -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.6 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: c61917eaf8bc8733d7e85540486fff22 Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02B7_01CF024D.39E52690" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.4 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1773 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02B7_01CF024D.39E52690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob and Stefan, Any thought of using Fluorinert to prevent coil breakdown? In indoor applications, if we didn't want a high-voltage (including 100kV and higher) coil (or transformer or connector or circuit board) to arc (including during wide-temperature range testing), we would simply drop the whole device (including batteries, power supply and modulator, if that made things more convenient) into fluorinert, without any insulation, encapsulation or coating on the circuit boards, coil or other components. We re-used the fluorinert without complications, and after removing items from fluorinert did not need to clean the previously-immersed items in any way. High dielectric strength: >160kV/cm High resistivity: > 10^15 ohm-cm (1E15 ohm-cm) Inert Wide temperature range: -70C < T < 150C (various formulations available down to -100C and up to 215C) Thermal conductivity: 0.07 W/m*K (ROM similar to water) Color: colorless, clear (transparency ROM same as purified water) Toxicity: non-toxic for practical purposes, non-hazardous according to 3M. Experimental deep-water breathing fluid; inert; but as with all products observe safety data sheet (3M: ". not recommended for implantation in humans" ". Eye Contact: . flush, rinse"); the following lends a perspective: (3M) ".skin/eye irritation: no significant irritation"; "if swallowed: no need for first aid is anticipated". Downside: ~ $200 USD per gallon from manufacturer; but reclaimed fluorinert is available at lower prices. The evaporation rate is probably dependent on which formulation you select; I've heard some folks mention quick evaporation at > 100C temperatures, but I do not remember needing to add fluorinert during environmental temperature testing; a wide range of formulations with different boiling points is available. 73, Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Bob Raide Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 12:05 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: VLF: 8969.99 Stefan; I understand your setup. It is not that hard to move. I am not going to use such low VLF freq but as I mentioned am going for license to try get 28-30 kHz. Then I can run power up with less troubles of 8.9 kHz freq. It won't be till next season but am planning now for coil cover-coil size-etc. I have already 2' piece 18 inch white PVC pipe. Will wind 1000 meters #16 wire to start. I want to use my present 74 kHz coil inside as it is and add the extra coil outside then I can trim inside to hit exact resonance. _____ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:44:09 +0100 From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99 Hi Bob, Oh, you're planning to become QRV on VLF, great! What inductance will you need for your system? What coil diameter and wire diameter will you use? It is important to calculate the dimension of that coil before you start to wind it. A diameter of at least 60cm is to be recommended, better 80cm. But of course it depends on the wire diameter and isolation (or insulation?). If you just use a coil body that is on hand and start winding, you may find the residual L is much to low and then you come out with 3 coils in series which will be a huge construction in very inefficient. You should also leave some distance to ground, to prevent losses into the soil. A distance equal to the coil diameter is fine. How will you manage the high voltages on the antenna? You will have to manage 50 kV rms or so. For me, the situation is not as easy. I must not leave the coil its position permanenty. I have to remove it after the experiment. But that's not so dramatic. I can leave it into the building and we have an elevator... Keep us informed by some photos :-) 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 26.12.2013 18:58, schrieb Bob Raide: Stefan; If I go to VLF I am going to add to my existing inductance outside. I plan to make a box using "plexiglass" quarter inch thick with glued seams so is weather proof. It will be clear [no color] and is very good dielectric. I was going to ask you how much clearance I need and 30 cm is about 1 foot or 12 inches clearance around the coil. Leave air gap around bottom so air can circulate so you don't build up moisture. Small muffin fan with shroud to pull fresh air up and around coil and out. Could even use clear vinyl material .025 thick and a clear vinyl box over a plastic pipe frame would be cheaper. Clear vinyl used for side curtains on boats-etc. I am in sewing business [make boat and truck covers] so could make you cover and you build the frame-I ship clear vinyl cover UPS to you or you could have local canvas company make it. Use "RTV" over stitches to make water tight-Bob _____ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 18:32:43 +0100 From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99 Hi Bob, Of course, if the coil is protected against rain, then it is no problem. But the coil is quite large and due to the high voltage, the housing should ideally have a distance of 30cm or more to the coil. So the housing must be quite large, even more. And that makes it dangerous because of wind blasts on the to of the building in 35m AGL... Anyway it would be nice and i also thought about using a simple foil across the coil, without additional distance. However on LF, there are partial discharges on the top of the coil which burns holes into the protecting foil. And the VLF winding is 2000m long. It is a lot of effort to repair it after a short cut between some turns due to arcing. So it is a high risk. I think i will make a test in the near future and see if 9 kHz partial discharges are as agressive as 137 kHz partial discharges :-) 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 26.12.2013 16:32, schrieb Bob Raide: Stefan; Even if you have your coils in weather proof housing rain is no good to transmit on 9 kHz? Bob _____ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:55:11 +0100 From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99 Hi Uwe, Tom, VLF, Best signal ever from Tom, capture attached. Is it due to the propagation or did it improve your signal? What about some tests in OPDS32 or maybe JT9-30? Unfortunately there is permanent rain here so i have to wait some days longer. 73, Stefan/DK7FC ------=_NextPart_000_02B7_01CF024D.39E52690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bob and Stefan,

 

Any thought of using Fluorinert to prevent coil = breakdown?

 

In indoor applications, if we didn’t want a high-voltage = (including 100kV and higher) coil (or transformer or connector or = circuit board) to arc (including during wide-temperature range testing), = we would simply drop the whole device (including batteries, power supply = and modulator, if that made things more convenient) into fluorinert, = without any insulation, encapsulation or coating on the circuit boards, = coil or other components. We re-used the fluorinert without = complications, and after removing items from fluorinert did not need to = clean the previously-immersed items in any way.

 

High dielectric strength: >160kV/cm

High resistivity: > 10^15 ohm-cm  (1E15 = ohm-cm)

Inert

Wide temperature range: -70C < T < 150C (various formulations = available down to -100C and up to 215C)

Thermal conductivity: 0.07 W/m*K (ROM similar to = water)

Color: colorless, clear (transparency ROM same as purified = water)

Toxicity: non-toxic for practical purposes, non-hazardous according = to 3M. Experimental deep-water breathing fluid; inert; but as with all = products observe safety data sheet (3M: “… not recommended = for implantation in humans” “… Eye Contact: … = flush, rinse”); the following lends a perspective: (3M) = “…skin/eye irritation: no significant = irritation”;  “if swallowed: no need for first aid is = anticipated”.

 

Downside: ~ $200 USD per gallon from manufacturer; but reclaimed = fluorinert is available at lower prices.

The evaporation rate is probably dependent on which formulation you = select; I’ve heard some folks mention quick evaporation at > = 100C temperatures, but I do not remember needing to add fluorinert = during environmental temperature testing; a wide range of formulations = with different boiling points is available.

 

73, Jim AA5BW

 

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Bob = Raide
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 12:05 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: RE: VLF: = 8969.99

 

Stefan;
I understand = your setup.  It is not that hard to move.
I am not going to use = such low VLF freq but as I mentioned am going for license to try get = 28-30 kHz.  Then I can run power up with less troubles of 8.9 kHz = freq.  It won't be till next season but am planning now for coil = cover-coil size-etc.  I have already 2' piece 18 inch white PVC = pipe.  Will wind 1000 meters #16 wire to start.  I want to use = my present 74 kHz coil inside as it is and add the extra coil outside = then I can trim inside to hit exact resonance. =
 

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 = 19:44:09 +0100
From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup= .uni-heidelberg.de
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99

Hi Bob,

Oh, you're = planning to become QRV on VLF, great!
What inductance will you need = for your system? What coil diameter and wire diameter will you use? It = is important to calculate the dimension of that coil before you start to = wind it. A diameter of at least 60cm is to be recommended, better 80cm. = But of course it depends on the wire diameter and isolation (or = insulation?). If you just use a coil body that is on hand and start = winding, you may find the residual L is much to low and then you come = out with 3 coils in series which will be a huge construction in very = inefficient. You should also leave some distance to ground, to prevent = losses into the soil. A distance equal to the coil diameter is = fine.
How will you manage the high voltages on the antenna? You will = have to manage 50 kV rms or so.

For me, the situation is not as = easy. I must not leave the coil its position permanenty. I have to = remove it after the experiment. But that's not so dramatic. I can leave = it into the building and we have an elevator...
Keep us informed by = some photos :-)

73, Stefan/DK7FC


Am 26.12.2013 18:58, = schrieb Bob Raide:

Stefan;
If I go to = VLF I am going to add to my existing inductance outside.  I plan to = make a box using "plexiglass" quarter inch thick with glued = seams so is weather proof.  It will be clear [no color] and is very = good dielectric.  I was going to ask you how much clearance I need = and 30 cm is about 1 foot or 12 inches clearance around the = coil.  Leave air gap around bottom so air can circulate so you = don't build up moisture.  Small muffin fan with shroud to pull = fresh air up and around coil and out.
Could even use clear vinyl = material .025 thick and a clear vinyl box over a = plastic pipe frame would be cheaper.  Clear vinyl used for side = curtains on boats-etc.
I am in sewing business [make boat and truck = covers] so could make you cover and you build the frame-I ship clear = vinyl cover UPS to you or you could have local canvas company make = it.  Use "RTV" over stitches to make water = tight-Bob
 

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 = 18:32:43 +0100
From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup= .uni-heidelberg.de
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99

Hi Bob,

Of course, if = the coil is protected against rain, then it is no problem. But the coil = is quite large and due to the high voltage, the housing should ideally = have a distance of 30cm or more to the coil. So the housing must be = quite large, even more. And that makes it dangerous because of wind = blasts on the to of the building in 35m AGL...
Anyway it would be = nice and i also thought about using a simple foil across the coil, = without additional distance.
However on LF, there are partial = discharges on the top of the coil which burns holes into the protecting = foil. And the VLF winding is 2000m long. It is a lot of effort to repair = it after a short cut between some turns due to arcing. So it is a high = risk.
I think i will make a test in the near future and see if 9 kHz = partial discharges are as agressive as 137 kHz partial discharges = :-)
73, Stefan/DK7FC

Am 26.12.2013 16:32, schrieb Bob Raide: =

Stefan;
Even if you have = your coils in weather proof housing rain is no good to transmit on 9 = kHz? Bob
 

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 = 13:55:11 +0100
From: Stefan.Schaefer@iup= .uni-heidelberg.de
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: Re: VLF: 8969.99

Hi Uwe, Tom, VLF,

Best = signal ever from Tom, capture attached. Is it due to the propagation or = did it improve your signal?
What about some tests in OPDS32 or maybe = JT9-30? Unfortunately there is permanent rain here so i have to wait = some days longer.

73, = Stefan/DK7FC

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