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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id z46si2001673eep.1.2013.10.18.08.36.49 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@comcast.net Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VXC52-0007CI-UX for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:35:12 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1VXC51-0007C9-Tj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:35:11 +0100 Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.16]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1VXC4x-0000Kn-Mp for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:35:10 +0100 Received: from omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.89]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id eebo1m0041vN32cA1fb5G7; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 15:35:05 +0000 Received: from Owner ([166.147.71.195]) by omta22.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id efah1m00R4Cnosu8ifaoVG; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 15:34:59 +0000 From: "hvanesce" To: References: ,<52610976.26786.1FD395@mike.dennison.ntlworld.com>, In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:34:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01cd01cecc17$9895a0a0$c9c0e1e0$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 thread-index: AQHRYKWBK2tEMu7qzkkREmAFVGBL0gLquHJeAu4ZB/wBqkkuqZm5SL+g Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1382110505; bh=V41N7oRlN50q8LuTAI87+Pjj5jHKuphIZE9uGHVfMrs=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=dLHNv0lKGbY+3zr/mxZVYSgH0ue9BaK8BRdBdd+PSCi+QDGpGwFUK6NWJ7/Fulimf T5Kqmp3YIUHSwytTD1t7zjDZI5vdIsOGwRynjMt9VOxiXWsOt24mFXySz+M/DXOwka ZD0ZtMUj6VVqlMspOhXzNL/zNa7Q5Fou8fmm3VnssuByviKEUWYZU7dO0rcCnGJyJZ xgfFfq8cdQpR5XO3hGJaouWTh3a1CKju11F3xWtbospxBfJ9a9WG3vsY1YD4MRH9G6 rdXx2GWKgUp2Gzq7MyWRwC0gGj0kO/LGbPcq39nru/vRHer2dDbFeCJx8sslQ4vs3P L2HN4uH9K5HWA== X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I'll second Mike's motion of fascinating, including Bob's perspective on relative SNR between captures by Hartmut, Henny and Mike. On long-term average one might expect a path loss of a dB or so between QTHs of Mike and Henny (for a signal originating from Bob's QTH), and a path loss of 3 dB or so between QTHs of Mike and Hartmut (for a signal originating from Bob's QTH). I eyeballed SNRs from 3 nights' captures between October 13th and last night, and on two of those nights, relative SNRs between the RX QTHs are not inconsistent with the above (give or take a few dB, and with some indication of a system SNR advantage at Mike's RX). But last night, if my subjective reading of the grabber plots is in the ballpark, max and average SNR at Mike's RX may have been up to 10dB above max and average SNR at QTHs of Hartmut and Henny. In other words, the differences (a-b, b-c, c-a, see following) between the overnight average SNRs (for periods of readability) at QTHs of (a) Mike, (b) Henny and (c) Hartmut may have varied by perhaps as much as (5dB?) over 3 nights' captures between October 13th and last night; and the difference between the overnight max SNRs (for a few characters) at QTHs of Mike, Henny and Hartmut may have varied by perhaps as much as (7dB?) over 3 nights' captures between October 13th and last night. [...] Content analysis details: (-0.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [76.96.30.16 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hvanesce[at]comcast.net) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.4 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: b3f8fb035a284b2b872f787d60d4607d Subject: RE: LF: 74.5495 QRSS 60 2300 till 0500+Mike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01CE_01CECBED.AFC0AA10" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1397 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01CE_01CECBED.AFC0AA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll second Mike's motion of fascinating, including Bob's perspective on relative SNR between captures by Hartmut, Henny and Mike. On long-term average one might expect a path loss of a dB or so between QTHs of Mike and Henny (for a signal originating from Bob's QTH), and a path loss of 3 dB or so between QTHs of Mike and Hartmut (for a signal originating from Bob's QTH). I eyeballed SNRs from 3 nights' captures between October 13th and last night, and on two of those nights, relative SNRs between the RX QTHs are not inconsistent with the above (give or take a few dB, and with some indication of a system SNR advantage at Mike's RX). But last night, if my subjective reading of the grabber plots is in the ballpark, max and average SNR at Mike's RX may have been up to 10dB above max and average SNR at QTHs of Hartmut and Henny. In other words, the differences (a-b, b-c, c-a, see following) between the overnight average SNRs (for periods of readability) at QTHs of (a) Mike, (b) Henny and (c) Hartmut may have varied by perhaps as much as (5dB?) over 3 nights' captures between October 13th and last night; and the difference between the overnight max SNRs (for a few characters) at QTHs of Mike, Henny and Hartmut may have varied by perhaps as much as (7dB?) over 3 nights' captures between October 13th and last night. For this T/A path distance, modal reinforcement/cancellation shouldn't be huge, but I wonder: a) Could it be a contributor to the above? b) Could cross-polarized RX antennas help to even things out over distance and time in this case? I use loop RX antennas in my AZ QTH as cultural noise in the desert is not a big problem; and these are easy to cross-polarize. Are loop RX antennas not used for cultural noise reasons in most of the RX equipment in this group? Regards, Jim AA5BW From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Bob Raide Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 8:54 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: 74.5495 QRSS 60 2300 till 0500+Mike Mike; Fabulous captures-I don't know of anyone operating higher up the band only below me as there are Loran artifacts higher up-Dex on 74.5485 and John at 74.5478 or .5475 Being weekend tomorrow I hope there will be late activity tonight and I will be on until at least 0600. Can you give me little info on your RX equipment and what antenna are you using [active or passive]? Bob _____ From: rjraide@hotmail.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:38:05 -0400 Subject: RE: LF: 74.5495 QRSS 60 2300 till 0500+ Mike; I shut down at 0500 as I didn't see even a trace on Hatmut's grabber! You have some great captures and will let it run tonight till after 0600. It is strange that the skywave only makes it so far and some nights just stops short of Germany. If you are up early shoot me an e mail if you want it to run longer than 0600. G4WGT's grabber is not sensitive enough to show anything so I only have Hartmut's grabber to go by-Bob > From: mike.dennison@ntlworld.com > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:12:06 +0100 > Subject: Re: LF: 74.5495 QRSS 60 2300 till 0500+ > > A good night! Bob on 74.5495kHz appeared at 0130 and traces included > a clear 'R' were seen until 0215. Then very good signals between 0245 > and 0500 when the transmitter appeared to have been turned off. > During this period, there is very good 'O' copy of "4 XRS4 XRS4 X". > > There are traces (possibly DFCW) on 74.5465kHz around 0145. Was this > an amateur signal? > > Also traces on 74.5485kz between 0550 and 0630. > > See the attached pictures. Fascinating stuff. > > Mike, G3XDV > > > WG2XRS/4 WNY [XRS4] with /5 and maybe /3 will be on unless more > > lightning-only more rain predicted-Bob > > ------=_NextPart_000_01CE_01CECBED.AFC0AA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ll second Mike’s motion of fascinating, including = Bob’s perspective on relative SNR between captures by Hartmut, = Henny and Mike.

 

On long-term average one might expect a path loss of a dB or so = between QTHs of Mike and Henny (for a signal originating from = Bob’s QTH), and a path loss of 3 dB or so between QTHs of Mike and = Hartmut (for a signal originating from Bob’s QTH). I eyeballed = SNRs from 3 nights’ captures between October 13th and = last night, and on two of those nights, relative SNRs between the RX = QTHs are not inconsistent with the above (give or take a few dB, and = with some indication of a system SNR advantage at Mike’s RX). But = last night, if my subjective reading of the grabber plots is in the = ballpark, max and average SNR at Mike’s RX may have been up to = 10dB above max and average SNR at QTHs of Hartmut and Henny. In other = words, the differences (a-b, b-c, c-a, see following)  between the = overnight average SNRs (for periods of readability) at QTHs of  (a) = Mike, (b) Henny and (c) Hartmut may have varied by perhaps as much as = (5dB?) over 3 nights’ captures between October 13th and = last night; and the difference between the overnight max SNRs (for a few = characters) at QTHs of Mike, Henny and Hartmut may have varied by = perhaps as much as (7dB?) over 3 nights’ captures between October = 13th and last night.

 

For this T/A path distance, modal reinforcement/cancellation = shouldn’t be huge, but I wonder:

a)      = Could it be a contributor to the above?

b)      = Could cross-polarized RX antennas help to even things out over = distance and time in this case?

 

I use loop RX antennas in my AZ QTH as cultural noise in the desert = is not a big problem; and these are easy to cross-polarize. Are loop RX = antennas not used for cultural noise reasons in most of the RX equipment = in this group?

 

Regards,

 

Jim

AA5BW

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Bob = Raide
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 8:54 AM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: RE: LF: 74.5495 QRSS 60 = 2300 till 0500+Mike

 

Mike;
Fabulous = captures-I don't know of anyone operating higher up the band only below = me as there are Loran artifacts higher up-Dex on 74.5485 and John at = 74.5478 or .5475
Being weekend tomorrow I hope there will be late = activity tonight and I will be on until at least 0600.
Can you give = me little info on your RX equipment and what antenna are you using = [active or passive]?  Bob
 

From: rjraide@hotmail.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:38:05 -0400
Subject: RE: LF: = 74.5495 QRSS 60 2300 till 0500+

Mike;
I shut down at = 0500 as I didn't see even a trace on Hatmut's grabber!  You = have some great captures and will let it run tonight till after = 0600.  It is strange that the skywave only makes it so far and some = nights just stops short of Germany.
If you are up early shoot me an e = mail if you want it to run longer than 0600.  G4WGT's grabber = is not sensitive enough to show anything so I only have Hartmut's = grabber to go by-Bob
 

> From: mike.dennison@ntlworld.com=
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:12:06 +0100
> Subject: Re: = LF: 74.5495 QRSS 60 2300 till 0500+
>
> A good night! Bob = on 74.5495kHz appeared at 0130 and traces included
> a clear 'R' = were seen until 0215. Then very good signals between 0245
> and = 0500 when the transmitter appeared to have been turned off.
> = During this period, there is very good 'O' copy of "4 XRS4 XRS4 = X".
>
> There are traces (possibly DFCW) on = 74.5465kHz around 0145. Was this
> an amateur signal?
> =
> Also traces on 74.5485kz between 0550 and 0630.
> =
> See the attached pictures. Fascinating stuff.
>
> = Mike, G3XDV
>
> > WG2XRS/4 WNY [XRS4] with /5 and maybe = /3 will be on unless more
> > lightning-only more rain = predicted-Bob
>
> =

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