Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w78GvIEd010765 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:57:21 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1fnRhU-0002sS-3T for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2018 17:52:44 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1fnRhT-0002sJ-DP for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2018 17:52:43 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:34]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1fnRhQ-0008AH-6r for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2018 17:52:42 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.104]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id nQtEfhaRmbxbYnRhKf5gSS; Wed, 08 Aug 2018 16:52:34 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1533747154; bh=RgGpxLKKwCZWqtgq/Gon1tXV73RnkoQGATkBaImtqds=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=ERm7eJoEFpjwy7kQf9mU8QTdGWy0F9mYGyW1USv5eXv93gYe3YzKuRoUHGRckeMi/ +lZfCuvvsztiB/UImcKdiGMz+4ltycumTYZftGvxdHUVznQI5aOnoBMOQOwNyyyYOA ybVCeLWG6Gc3BJq0mbTY68AzP3XVOzKJECo5oMYJpR5D9Z39gc1+HgXdfEAwek7iTH i6uP27DWHeV5ifLTTREVmCSSdS7lTq+4SuuFl/IsXaIdTwug7hSZybxmzknrGWBusb Fm8543aevaUNRDrp2NYus3rxWrcC6hQlKzdFgLE9BRq9FtbnUEjwfCK7iOOExYISNN gZq+BNYiLdUxg== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:78f6:dd:b547:d008]) by resomta-ch2-08v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id nRhGfBB1VIGvVnRhHf3McR; Wed, 08 Aug 2018 16:52:33 +0000 From: To: References: <5B54CCCB.6060903@posteo.de> <5B59E687.5030805@posteo.de> <5B5C3ABF.3030809@posteo.de> <5B5C4A63.3040504@posteo.de> <5B5C5446.30105@posteo.de> <14080281532786049@iva8-6be7d23653d9.qloud-c.yandex.net> <5B5CD03F.40602@posteo.de> <14811811532865577@myt4-415a3339794b.qloud-c.yandex.net> <5B5DC8BC.9030601@posteo.de> <5B5E2D7D.6050908@posteo.de> <5B5F678B.7000506@posteo.de> <6dc15e3e-a325-4be2-55e3-44413e814f8a@web.de> <5B6050DA.60905@posteo.de> <5B60A72B.90103@posteo.de> <5B61E6FB.7090507@posteo.de> <072601d42a7a$66c4d7a0$344e86e0$@comcast.net> <5B645075.9090107@posteo.de> <5B6858EE.4000006@posteo.de> <000a01d42db4$e28a88c0$a79f9a40$@comcast.net> <5B6A060A.5030100@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <5B6A060A.5030100@posteo.de> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:52:27 -0400 Message-ID: <012501d42f38$31f8a5c0$95e9f140$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGK+X/mQMWyuRdjsqX4eNmU0jy1AgH6HXhZAdBODi4BxZXZlgFXaCBDAcOIWOUBnYNBKQGxTZhLAYfRXfIBU2fEMwKcsQRKAKPPLBYCLTTnegIjmfQZAfApZLUBvUjkVQGZSzEBAo4oNHYDeOYMPgKGPRENAtEQ3GKkD+5VUA== Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJzDnpvRpch+CkA+NJXPC2rdBfLE5R6RWS6fpNj7XU9F4H+gioShCgfOe2BxT2VPrx5ogL60LBNqXlB1PS/9SlrVf+pRCFMfYGHxcIKsctWx+9qb+GYE Kzyhm2Ky2UktaXl9q9GelVDpufoGjFYAWjltfkk8WvADd1YdbYkjGqTvq/46NwadfeMqKmRnyD+szcv2TSoJ6RxvVSh0i9Mpc8FeBZ5vzULPleVsP+7v7GQ4 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hello Stefan, Such a coincidence; I recently put a similar LiFePO battery on my wish list. I think that the ~ 3 kWh LiFePO batteries might last over 500 deep cycles (some claims up to 2000 deep cycles) if charge/discharge conditions (including temperature and rates) and battery specification match reasonably. At 1000 deep cycles that might be ~ $1.50 per 3 kWh cycle (less than the round-trip fuel cost driving to/from the test location). [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:34 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hvanesce[at]comcast.net) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 1aa946e1ea228c15a99acb87150d8ef6 Subject: RE: LF: RE: Experimenting on 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0126_01D42F16.AAE976C0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0126_01D42F16.AAE976C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Stefan, =20 Such a coincidence; I recently put a similar LiFePO battery on my wish = list. =20 I think that the ~ 3 kWh LiFePO batteries might last over 500 deep = cycles (some claims up to 2000 deep cycles) if charge/discharge = conditions (including temperature and rates) and battery specification = match reasonably. At 1000 deep cycles that might be ~ $1.50 per 3 kWh = cycle (less than the round-trip fuel cost driving to/from the test = location).=20 =20 I=E2=80=99m planning to obtain cycle-life data from a battery = custom-packaging company or battery-cell manufacturing company before = selecting an LiFePO battery and buying. They don=E2=80=99t like to = publish the data because they can=E2=80=99t guarantee it, but they have = a lot of data. Some lithium batteries can (practically speaking) provide = ~ 3 times as much energy throughput (total energy before end of life), = if they are used in a way that manufacturer/custom-packager cycle-life = data would suggest. I=E2=80=99m hoping that with such = manufacturer/packager data a 3 kWh battery can be specified, selected = and operated in a way that provides over 1000 deep cycles.=20 =20 For maximum energy throughput (total energy before end of life) from = lithium batteries I usually try to match (before selection/purchase, and = during use): (a) operating conditions and (b) = manufacturer/custom-packager battery-life data, for the following: Charge ambient temperature, discharge ambient temperature, charge rate, = discharge rate, discharge depth (DOD), and DOD during storage. I think that LiFePO might be more tolerant than some other lithium types = for some of the above parameters. Selection and operation to optimize for the 6 factors above can provide = 2x to 3x greater energy throughput (than with typical selection and use) = for many types of lithium batteries; hoping it helps for LiFePO. =20 =20 Sometimes with lithium batteries I also optimize for other parameters, = like: (a) max charge (not charging to 100%, based on = manufacturer/custom-packager life specifications) (b) charge profile (custom current-vs-time-and-voltage, using a custom = charger, based on manufacturer/custom-packager life specifications) These two can also significantly increase energy throughput, but they = require more effort for less benefit than the six factors in the = preceding paragraph, so I usually don=E2=80=99t bother with these last = two parameters. =20 Hope your power supply preparations go well. =20 I have a good power supply and amplifier for earth loop, and accessible = guard rails, and accessible good soil, but the accessible guard rails = are nowhere near the good soil :-(=20 =20 Your spectrograms look excellent. Suitable for framing for 2 kHz earth = loop far field; very nice images. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2018 4:50 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: RE: Experimenting on 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz =20 Hi Jim,=20 yes, i bet that 970 Hz will be possible without much trouble. Today i = continued with some next preparations: Some years ago i built a DC power = supply from '12 V' to 0...150 V. It is capable to manage 500W, at least = i think so :-) I made a short test at 180 W output power and = measured/calculated 84 % efficiency. Since i learned a bit more since = the time i constructed it, i think i can even rise the efficiency by = replacing a MOSFET... Also i consider to invest in the future and buy something like this: = https://www.robur-akku.de/ Quite expensive but others buy a 'FT897' or = 'TS-2000' or 'IC-756' or such stuff :-) The 48 V / 60 Ah version contains about 3 kWh so it would be no problem = to drive a 1 kW PA for 2 hours (or even 2 kW for 1 hour!) at a good = efficiency and without a loud, inefficient and stinking generator that = doesn't manage dynamic power changes...=20 The modern world! At least, the next idea is to build a H bridge running at 0...150V. It = should allow to manage the next 3 dB power step at least. And the = circuit design will be such that i can go down to ELF (the real ELF, = 3...30 Hz). A discrete tank circuit should prevent from harmonic = radiation. I will make measurements showing the signal in the frequency = domain then ;-) 73, Stefan Am 06.08.2018 20:40, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 Stefan, =20 Congratulations on 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz (ULF) far-field records! =20 A remarkable step from inverted-L efforts below 3 KHz last year; high = SNR in 40 minutes at 2x far field on (if memory serves) the first = attempt after your trial run.=20 =20 Interesting that your 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz results were somewhat similar = in this variable-propagation region (2kHz-4kHz 100km-1000km). Could that = mean good things for lower frequencies? Perhaps most of your E-field is = vertically polarized with this loop; I wonder if that will provide more = stable propagation in this region. =20 Thanks for pushing the boundaries again. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 10:19 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: ULF: Experimenting on 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz =20 Hi ULF,=20 On Sunday, 5th 2018 i successfully crossed the far field border on 2470 = Hz for the first time. That's the 121 km band. Later i even crossed it = on 1970 Hz, the 152 km band. These are two new records of the lowest = frequency signals generated by amateurs and received in the far field. = The distance between RX and TX was 55.6 km . The far field for 2470 Hz = starts at 19.4 km distance. For 1970 Hz it starts at 24.3 km distance. = The RX antenna and the TX antennas were loops! By running about 100 W (PA DC input) i managed to get 910 mA antenna = current on 2470 Hz into the earth loop in JN39WI. Here i transmitted a = plain carrier from 06:13...07:15 UTC.=20 Later i QSYed to 1970 Hz and here i got 910 mA as well. The 1970 Hz = transmission took place from 07:19...08:21 UTC. Despite beeing in the middle of a large forest there was good internet = connectivity and so i was able so watch my own grabber window showing = the band activity on 2470 Hz in a spectrogram of 424 uHz FFT bin width, = which is very wide for that frequency range! The spectrogram uses a Hann = window and the FFT window time is about 40 minutes, so it took some time = until a peak builts up. But already after 20 minutes i saw that = something happens! After 40 minutes the carrier transmission reached an = SNR of about 20 dB! It was a relatively quiet morning for early August. All the VLF stream data is stored into a ~ 12 day covering buffer so i = have the chance to optimise the filter settings and antenna mixing in a = postprocessing to achieve the best SNR from the system. For the 1970 Hz transmission there was no spectrogram available but = since i had internet access and a Linux notebook available, i processed = the VLF stream data (via SSH remote access to the storage PC) during the = transmission and followed the peak's SNR building up! It clearly looks like this antenna outperforms my large inverted L in 30 = m above the ground, at least into the ULF range! This opens up a new = room for experimentation on the way down to DC! :-) Now i need to get = rid of these output transformers since they will become problematic for = wide-band experimentation on ULF / SLF. Now, attached you can find two images showing spectrum peaks from the = two bands, out of the 55.6 km distance. The complete transmission time = is here integrated in one peak. Since the carrier S/N can also be = calculated from decoding a '*' message in EbNaut, i also show the = results for such calculation along with the whole postprocessing chain. Spectrograms will be produced as well, but this will take a few hours = here... 73, Stefan ------=_NextPart_000_0126_01D42F16.AAE976C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Stefan,

 

Such a coincidence; I recently put a similar LiFePO battery on my = wish list.

 

I think that the ~ 3 kWh LiFePO batteries might last over 500 deep = cycles (some claims up to 2000 deep cycles) if charge/discharge = conditions (including temperature and rates) and battery specification = match reasonably. At 1000 deep cycles that might be ~ $1.50 per 3 kWh = cycle (less than the round-trip fuel cost driving to/from the test = location).

 

I=E2=80=99m planning to obtain cycle-life data from a battery = custom-packaging company or battery-cell manufacturing company before = selecting an LiFePO battery and buying. They don=E2=80=99t like to = publish the data because they can=E2=80=99t guarantee it, but they have = a lot of data. Some lithium batteries can (practically speaking) provide = ~ 3 times as much energy throughput (total energy before end of life), = if they are used in a way that manufacturer/custom-packager cycle-life = data would suggest. I=E2=80=99m hoping that with such = manufacturer/packager data a 3 kWh battery can be specified, selected = and operated in a way that provides over 1000 deep cycles. =

 

For maximum energy throughput (total energy before end of life) from = lithium batteries I usually try to match (before selection/purchase, and = during use): (a) operating conditions and (b) = manufacturer/custom-packager battery-life data, for the = following:

Charge ambient temperature, discharge ambient temperature, charge = rate, discharge rate, discharge depth (DOD), and DOD during = storage.

I think that LiFePO might be more tolerant than some other lithium = types for some of the above parameters.

Selection and operation to optimize for the 6 factors above can = provide 2x to 3x greater energy throughput (than with typical selection = and use) for many types of lithium batteries; hoping it helps for = LiFePO. =C2=A0

 

Sometimes with lithium batteries I also optimize for other = parameters, like:

(a) max charge (not charging to 100%, based on = manufacturer/custom-packager life = specifications)

(b) charge profile (custom current-vs-time-and-voltage, using a = custom charger, based on manufacturer/custom-packager life = specifications)

These two can also significantly increase energy throughput, but they = require more effort for less benefit than the six factors in the = preceding paragraph, so I usually don=E2=80=99t bother with these last = two parameters.

 

Hope your power supply preparations go well.

 

I have a good power supply and amplifier for earth loop, and = accessible guard rails, and accessible good soil, but the accessible = guard rails are nowhere near the good soil :-(

 

Your spectrograms look excellent. Suitable for framing for 2 kHz = earth loop far field; very nice images.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

 

 

 

 

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of = DK7FC
Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2018 4:50 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: RE: = Experimenting on 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz

 

Hi Jim, =

yes, i bet that 970 Hz will be possible without much trouble. = Today i continued with some next preparations: Some years ago i built a = DC power supply from '12 V' to 0...150 V. It is capable to manage 500W, = at least i think so :-) I made a short test at 180 W output power and = measured/calculated 84 % efficiency. Since i learned a bit more since = the time i constructed it, i think i can even rise the efficiency by = replacing a MOSFET...

Also i consider to invest in the future and = buy something like this: https://www.robur-akku.de/ Quite = expensive but others buy a 'FT897' or 'TS-2000' or 'IC-756' or such = stuff :-)
The 48 V / 60 Ah version contains about 3 kWh so it would = be no problem to drive a 1 kW PA for 2 hours (or even 2 kW for 1 hour!) = at a good efficiency and without a loud, inefficient and stinking = generator that doesn't manage dynamic power changes...
The modern = world!

At least, the next idea is to build a H bridge running at = 0...150V. It should allow to manage the next 3 dB power step at least. = And the circuit design will be such that i can go down to ELF (the real = ELF, 3...30 Hz). A discrete tank circuit should prevent from harmonic = radiation. I will make measurements showing the signal in the frequency = domain then ;-)

73, Stefan


Am 06.08.2018 20:40, = schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net: =

Stefan,

 

Congratulations on 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz (ULF) far-field = records!

 

A remarkable step from inverted-L efforts below 3 KHz last year; high = SNR in 40 minutes at 2x far field on (if memory serves) the first = attempt after your trial run.

 

Interesting that your 2470 Hz and 1970 Hz results were somewhat = similar in this variable-propagation region (2kHz-4kHz 100km-1000km). = Could that mean good things for lower frequencies? Perhaps most of your = E-field is vertically polarized with this loop; I wonder if that will = provide more stable propagation in this region.

 

Thanks for pushing the boundaries again.

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

 

 

  

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC
Sent: = Monday, August 6, 2018 10:19 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: ULF: Experimenting on 2470 Hz and 1970 = Hz

 

Hi ULF, =

On Sunday, 5th 2018 i successfully crossed the far field border = on 2470 Hz for the first time. That's the 121 km band. = Later i even crossed it on 1970 Hz, the 152 km band. These = are two new records of the lowest frequency signals generated by = amateurs and received in the far field. The distance between RX and TX = was 55.6 km . The far field for 2470 Hz starts at 19.4 km distance. For = 1970 Hz it starts at 24.3 km distance. The RX antenna and the TX = antennas were loops!

By running about 100 W (PA DC input) i = managed to get 910 mA antenna current on 2470 Hz into the earth loop in = JN39WI. Here i transmitted a plain carrier from 06:13...07:15 UTC. =
Later i QSYed to 1970 Hz and here i got 910 mA as well. The 1970 Hz = transmission took place from 07:19...08:21 UTC.

Despite beeing in = the middle of a large forest there was good internet connectivity and so = i was able so watch my own grabber window showing the band activity on = 2470 Hz in a spectrogram of 424 uHz FFT bin width, which is very wide = for that frequency range! The spectrogram uses a Hann window and the FFT = window time is about 40 minutes, so it took some time until a peak = builts up. But already after 20 minutes i saw that something happens! = After 40 minutes the carrier transmission reached an SNR of about 20 dB! = It was a relatively quiet morning for early August.
All the VLF = stream data is stored into a ~ 12 day covering buffer so i have the = chance to optimise the filter settings and antenna mixing in a = postprocessing to achieve the best SNR from the system.

For the = 1970 Hz transmission there was no spectrogram available but since i had = internet access and a Linux notebook available, i processed the VLF = stream data (via SSH remote access to the storage PC) during the = transmission and followed the peak's SNR building up!

It clearly = looks like this antenna outperforms my large inverted L in 30 m above = the ground, at least into the ULF range! This opens up a new room for = experimentation on the way down to DC! :-) Now i need to get rid of = these output transformers since they will become problematic for = wide-band experimentation on ULF / SLF.

Now, attached you can = find two images showing spectrum peaks from the two bands, out of the = 55.6 km distance. The complete transmission time is here integrated in = one peak. Since the carrier S/N can also be calculated from decoding a = '*' message in EbNaut, i also show the results for such calculation = along with the whole postprocessing chain.

Spectrograms will be = produced as well, but this will take a few hours here...

73, = Stefan

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