Return-Path: Received: from rly-mg07.mx.aol.com (rly-mg07.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.113]) by air-mg03.mail.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMG031-a22494fdb0496; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:23:16 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-mg07.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMG074-a22494fdb0496; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:23:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1LEpQG-0006Tz-C8 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:22:32 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1LEpQF-0006Tq-7G for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:22:31 +0000 Received: from smtp-out-1.talktalk.net ([62.24.128.231] helo=smtp.talktalk.net) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LEpQB-0007pN-3N for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:22:31 +0000 X-Path: TTSMTP X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqIEAJppT0lOlrbF/2dsb2JhbACCQC6BZoZLBrQwWJAThkM Received: from unknown (HELO mal769a60aa920) ([78.150.182.197]) by smtp.talktalk.net with SMTP; 22 Dec 2008 18:22:17 +0000 Message-ID: <011f01c96462$39859c40$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <008701c9643c$e94f3f30$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> <17FA40F24C374952AFB1563EF6A75A07@p4> <00d401c9644b$19cb2bc0$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> <774C34271D3E4E6A97F62E37532DF46D@p4> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:22:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: Re: 500 Khz modes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011C_01C96462.393BC200" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_011C_01C96462.393BC200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark. I refer you to WR07 radio regulations 5.82A that only Radiotelegraphy is to=20= be used between 495 and 505 khz if you dispute this you should address you r= emarks to OFCOM, also ask them what Radiotelegraphy means to them. I have al= ready asked and you have my answer in other emails. Quote to them all the rhetroric that you have emailed here about Greek origi= ns of the word telegraphy and dictionaries and let me knoiw how you get on. We are all waiting, you could well box yourself into a corner, and whereas t= here is some flexibility at present they might well dictate that only telegr= aphy is to be used on 500 khz. G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: 500 Khz modes Mal read YOUR licence=20 it was issued by Ofcom for normal people not ex Radio Officers. Ofcom are= not part of HM government. It does not refer to any definitions that may or may not appear in the 'Ha= ndbook for Radio Officers' Early licences issued by the RA clearly state in the first paragraph, tha= t the licence is for self training in communication by wireless telegraphy.=20= It does not say Telegraphy, Telephony and data transmissions, because they a= re all covered in accepted usage by the one term. In accordance with this, the term wireless telegraphy has been dropped fro= m the latest licence from Ofcom and replaced by 'radio telecommunications' p= resumably because the old wording confused some people. The licence then spe= cifies some of the modes allowed, including Morse telegraphy. section 1 (5)a When did Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 suddenly not apply to anything other= than Morse code? perhaps you should read it...=20 Perhaps you alone are immune to prosecution should you decide to broadcast= a spoof mayday or similar on a marine voice radio, because of the clause th= at refers to sending of such a message by wireless telegraphy. Perhaps you s= hould be campaigning to clear the name of those already prosecuted for such=20= offences, as they are clearly not guilty of an offence under this act. Techn= ically speaking even under the accepted definition of Telegraphy, voice comm= unications are exempt (unless they are specifically defined as wireless tele= graphy by the act itself.. an no I haven't read it end to end!!!) There is no doubt that Wireless Telegraphy includes but is not limited to=20= Morse Code transmissions. This definition is accepted by the entire establis= hment, the wider radio community and is enshrined in law. Where our UK licences refer to Wireless telegraph (actually I have not fou= nd any references to Radio telegraphy) they mean all forms of radio communications.=20 You may consider yourself a good CW operator, you are probably a better CW= operator than I am, but your attitude denies you the courtesy of being refe= rred to as Professional. I also did not mention Radio Officers, I said competent CW operators, thou= gh to equate that with professional radio officers to the exclusion of all o= thers is as far as I am concerned a rather narrow minded approach. I happen to have known a number of professional Radio Officers, and they w= rote down messages that they need to relay to others, and often don't bother= otherwise. One old gentleman in fact, in his employment, rarely wrote down the charac= ters he received. He would listen to CW in German and write it down in Engli= sh. By your definition he was not a professional Radio Officer.=20 You may write down all you receive but I know others don't. I don't, and=20= whilst I may not be in the same league as yourself, I am a good enough CW op= erator to find that the majority of my QSOs are actually on CW. Thankyou for the lively debate, I have enjoyed it. I apologise if any othe= rs consider it a waste of bandwidth. :<) Have a happy Christmas, a prosperous New Year and plenty of DX on your cho= sen bands and modes Mark GM4ISM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mal hamilton=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: LF: Re: Re: 500 Khz modes Handbook published for Radio Officers and issued by HM government states= clearly what Radiotelegraphy means and Radiotelephony as far as they are co= ncerned. Take you argument up with them, they issue the licence (OFCOM)) A professional Radio Officer DOES write down the messages he/her receiv= es, they are either hand written or taken on a typewriter to be forwarded to= the appropriate destination person/persons. In some cases the telegraphy me= ssage is printed directly onto a paper tape using an undulator.=20 Sorry Mark that you happen to be misguided on so many counts. De Mal/G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: LF: Re: 500 Khz modes Well said Mal Telegraphy Greek=20 Tele 'far-off' graph 'writing' Morse code actually is less 'telagraphy' as the end result does not by= default get written (by competent cw operators at any rate) Some definitions:- Concise Oxford English A system or device for transmitting messages from a distance. Webster's 1. Communicating at a distance by electric transmission over wire.=20 Wikipedia (referred to by Webster's) Telegraphy is the long distance transmission of written messages witho= ut physical transport of letters. This definition includes recent forms of d= ata transmission such as fax, email, and computer networks in general. (A te= legraph is a machine for transmitting and receiving messages over long dista= nces, i.e. for telegraphy.) Radio telegraphy see above but omit wires seems to me that the generally accepted use of the term does not restr= ict the user to Morse code I eagerly await the large increase in WSPT transmissions now that this= is cleared up :<)) Mark GM4ISM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mal hamilton=20 To: rsgb=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: LF: 500 Khz modes All MF=20 To put it briefly WRC07/Radio regulations 5.82A the spectrum between= 495 khz and 505 khz permits RADIOTELEGRAPHY only. I pointed this out in a previous message.=20 de Mal/G3KEV ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 - Release Date: 12/= 21/2008 3:08 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20= /2008 2:34 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 - Release Date: 12/21/2= 008 3:08 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/200= 8 2:34 PM ------=_NextPart_000_011C_01C96462.393BC200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark.
I refer you to WR07 radio regulations 5.82A= that=20 only Radiotelegraphy is to be used between 495 and 505 khz if you dispute th= is=20 you should address you remarks to OFCOM, also ask them what Radiotelegraphy=20 means to them. I have already asked and you have my answer in other=20 emails.
Quote to them all the rhetroric that y= ou have=20 emailed here about Greek origins of the word telegraphy and dictionarie= s=20 and let me knoiw how you get on.
We are all waiting, you could well box= =20 yourself into a corner, and whereas there is some flexibility at present the= y=20 might well dictate that only telegraphy is to be used on 500 khz.
G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
Mark
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:1= 8=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: 500 Khz=20 modes

Mal read YOUR licence
it was issued by Ofcom for normal people=20= not ex=20 Radio Officers.  Ofcom are not part of HM government.
It does not refer to any definiti= ons that=20 may or may not appear in the 'Handbook for Radio=20 Officers'
Early licences issued by the RA  cle= arly=20 state in the first paragraph, that the licence is for self training i= n=20 communication by wireless telegraphy. It does not say Telegraphy, Telephon= y=20 and data transmissions, because they are all covered in accepted usage by=20= the=20 one term.
In accordance with this, the term wireles= s=20 telegraphy has been dropped from the latest licence from Ofcom and replace= d by=20 'radio telecommunications' presumably because the old wording confused som= e=20 people. The licence then specifies some of the modes allowed, includi= ng=20 Morse telegraphy. section 1 (5)a
 
When did Wireless Telegraphy Act 194= 9=20 suddenly not apply to anything other than Morse code? perhaps you should r= ead=20 it...
Perhaps you alone are immune to prosecuti= on=20 should you decide to broadcast a spoof mayday or similar on a marine voice= =20 radio, because of the clause that refers to sending of such a message by=20 wireless telegraphy. Perhaps you should be campaigning to clear the name o= f=20 those already prosecuted for such offences, as they are clearly not guilty= of=20 an offence under this act. Technically speaking even under the accepted=20 definition of Telegraphy, voice communications are exempt (unless they are= =20 specifically defined as wireless telegraphy by the act itself.. an no I=20 haven't read it end to end!!!)
There is no doubt that Wireless Telegraph= y=20 includes but is not limited to Morse Code transmissions. This definition i= s=20 accepted by the entire establishment, the wider radio community and i= s=20 enshrined in law.
Where our UK licences refer to Wireless t= elegraph=20 (actually I have not found any references to Radio telegraphy)
they mean all forms of  radio=20 communications.
 
You may consider yourself a good CW opera= tor, you=20 are probably a better CW operator than I am, but your attitude denies you=20= the=20 courtesy of being referred to as Professional.
 
I also did not mention Radio Officers, I=20= said=20 competent CW operators, though to equate that with professional radio= =20 officers to the exclusion of all others
is as far as I am concerned a rather = ;narrow=20 minded approach.
I happen to have known a number of=20 professional Radio Officers, and they wrote down messages that they need t= o=20 relay to others, and often don't bother otherwise.
One old gentleman in fact, in his=20 employment, rarely wrote down the characters he received. He would li= sten=20 to CW in German and write it down in English.
By your definition he was not a professio= nal=20 Radio Officer.
You may write down all you receive but I=20= know=20 others don't.  I don't, and whilst I may not be in the same league as= =20 yourself, I am a good enough CW operator to find that the majority of my Q= SOs=20 are actually on CW.
 
Thankyou for the lively debate, I have en= joyed=20 it. I apologise if any others consider it a waste of bandwidth.=20 :<)
Have a happy Christmas, a prosperous New=20= Year and=20 plenty of DX on your chosen bands and modes
Mark GM4ISM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3= :36=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: Re: 500 Khz=20 modes

Handbook published for Radio Officers a= nd=20 issued by HM government states clearly what Radiotelegraphy means and=20 Radiotelephony as far as they are concerned. Take you argument up with t= hem,=20 they issue the licence (OFCOM))
A professional Radio Officer DOES&= nbsp;=20 write down the messages he/her receives, they are either hand writt= en=20 or taken on a typewriter to be forwarded to the appropriate destina= tion=20 person/persons. In some cases the telegraphy message is printed=20 directly onto a paper tape using an undulator.
Sorry Mark that you happen to be misgui= ded on=20 so many counts.
 
De Mal/G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008= 2:19=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: 500 Khz modes<= /DIV>

Well said Mal
 
Telegraphy
Greek
Tele 'far-off'  graph =20 'writing'
Morse code actually is less 'telagrap= hy' as=20 the end result does not by default get written (by competent cw=20 operators at any rate)
Some definitions:-
 
Concise Oxford English
A system or device for transmitting messages from a distance.
 
Webster's
1. Communicating at a distance by electric=20 transmission over wire.
 
Wikipedia (referred to by=20 Webster's)
Telegraphy is the long distance transmission of=20 written messages without physical transport of letters. This definitio= n=20 includes recent forms of data transmission such as fax, email, and=20 computer networks in general. (A telegraph is a machi= ne=20 for transmitting and receiving messages over long distances, i.e. for=20 telegraphy.)
 
Radio telegraphy   see abov= e but=20 omit wires
 
seems to me that the generally accept= ed use=20 of the term does not restrict the user to Morse code
I eagerly await the large increase in= WSPT=20 transmissions now that this is cleared up
 
:<))
Mark GM4ISM
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 mal=20 hamilton
To: rsgb
Sent: Monday, December 22, 20= 08=20 1:55 PM
Subject: LF: 500 Khz modes

All MF
To put it briefly WRC07/Radio regul= ations=20 5.82A the spectrum between 495 khz and 505 khz permits RADIOTELEGRAP= HY=20 only.
I pointed this out in a previous me= ssage.=20
de Mal/G3KEV
 


No virus found in this incoming message.
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20= -=20 http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/185= 9 -=20 Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -=20 http://www.avg.com
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Checked by AVG -=20 http://www.avg.com
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