Return-Path: Received: from rly-dd06.mx.aol.com (rly-dd06.mail.aol.com [172.19.141.153]) by air-dd01.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDD012-b864b4a41d883; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:09:11 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dd06.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDD068-b864b4a41d883; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:08:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NU50i-0005WS-Aw for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:07:44 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NU50h-0005WJ-KR for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:07:43 +0000 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NU50b-0004ic-Hj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:07:43 +0000 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2010 21:07:08 -0000 Received: from p5DD347CD.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO Clemens04) [93.211.71.205] by mail.gmx.net (mp064) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2010 22:07:08 +0100 X-Authenticated: #17214767 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18ntJQHi4QnZAPPsyvBBbCEHab5a73jSXsgxBlo/k zCQVuHTrgvBWTt Message-ID: <010901ca9238$dede87b0$0201a8c0@Clemens04> From: "Clemens Paul" To: References: <000e01ca9223$6d16ec90$0517aac0@desktop> <9afca2641001101102r6252b153lf6d911ee622589e5@mail.gmail.com> <001901ca922a$2b2335d0$0517aac0@desktop> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 22:06:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3598 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.48,0.49 X-Karma: unknown: X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_FONT_BIG=0.256,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: Link budget calculation or estimation of dist for given power on WSPR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0105_01CA9241.378D3110" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_FONT_BIG,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CA9241.378D3110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That was me. 2009-12-19 21:44 G7NKS 0.503847 +12 -1 IO92ub 0.1 DL4RAJ JN68kj 1020 108 73 Clemens DL4RAJ ----- Original Message ----- From: James Cowburn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:21 PM Subject: RE: LF: Link budget calculation or estimation of dist for given power on WSPR Hi Roger I have managed 1020km D?RAJ on my old Tx before it expired. TF3 would be great though. 73s Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Roger Lapthorn Sent: 10 January 2010 19:03 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Link budget calculation or estimation of dist for given power on WSPR Certainly GM4SLV has a much lower noise floor than most stations on 500kHz Jim. I think he estimated about 10dB lower, so it may be easier for him to hear very weak signals than many others. For what it's worth, my 1mW ERP has been received at -18dB S/N at 990kms range in S.Germany (and at around -23dB a few times), so assuming another 10-12dB in hand, that must be good for another skywave "hop" under favourable conditions. I am still hopeful that TF3HZ might just spot me on a good night. The magic 1000kms barrier is tantalisingly close. RN3AGC says he might just have seen a "whisper" of a trace from me the other night and he is 2400kms away, but if it was me it was far too weak to decode. It will be interesting to see what people say is possible based on the propagation theory etc. 73s Roger G3XBM 2010/1/10 James Cowburn Dear LF, Has anyone any ideas or suggestions on a resource for calculation of a link budget for WSPR over a set distance? As it seems I can get up to GM4SLV reasonably consistently on my current antenna/power setting with a SNR of around -22dB and the limit for WSPR is around -30dB then is there a means for roughly estimating or indeed accurately calculating the Expected Max Range (EMR) at that power setting and antenna configuration? Clearly, there are differences between separate Rx stations but if one knows the ratio between two or more Rx stations then it should be possible to pro-rate or estimate at least the signal strength at a given Rx based on its performance with other known signals. If I can do 916km with an SNR of say -22dB then how much further would the remaining 8dB or so of WSPR detection get me, assuming the other Rx has the same capability as GM4SLV and if their capability is different, then is it fine to factor for the dB difference over known paths/signals? Thanks in advance for any answers or pointers and best wishes to all for a great 2010 With best regards Jim Dr. James Cowburn G7NKS E james.cowburn@virgin.net -- http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eingehende eMail ist virenfrei. Von AVG überprüft - www.avg.de Version: 9.0.725 / Virendatenbank: 270.14.132/2611 - Ausgabedatum: 01/10/10 08:35:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CA9241.378D3110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That was me.
 2009-12-19 21:44   G7NKS   0.503847   +12   -1   IO92ub   0.1   DL4RAJ   JN68kj   1020   108 
 
73
Clemens
DL4RAJ
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 201= 0 8:21=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: Link budget= calculation=20 or estimation of dist for given power on WSPR

Hi=20 Roger

&= nbsp;

I have= managed=20 1020km  D?RAJ on my old Tx before it expired.   TF3= would be=20 great though.

&= nbsp;

73s

&= nbsp;

Jim

&= nbsp;

<= FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group= @blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blackshe= ep.org] On= Behalf Of Roger Lapthorn
Sent: 10 January 2010 19:03
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Link budget calculation=20 or estimation of dist for given power on=20 WSPR

 

Certainly= GM4SLV has a much lower noise=20 floor than most stations on 500kHz Jim. I think he estimated about= 10dB lower,=20 so it may be easier for him to hear very weak signals than many=20 others.

For what it's worth, my 1mW ERP has been received at= -18dB S/N=20 at 990kms range in S.Germany (and at around -23dB a few times), so= assuming=20 another 10-12dB in hand, that must be good for another skywave "hop"= under=20 favourable conditions. I am still hopeful that TF3HZ might just spot= me on a=20 good night. The magic 1000kms barrier is tantalisingly close. RN3AGC= says he=20 might just have seen a "whisper" of a trace from me the other night= and he is=20 2400kms away, but if it was me it was far too weak to decode.
It will=20 be interesting to see what people say is possible based on the propa= gation=20 theory etc.

73s
Roger G3XBM

2010/1/10 James Cowburn <james.cowburn@virgin.net><= o:p>

 Dear=20 LF,

Has anyone any=20 ideas or suggestions on a resource for calculation of a link budget= for WSPR=20 over a set distance?

As it seems I can=20 get up to GM4SLV reasonably consistently on my current antenna/power= setting=20 with a SNR of around -22dB and the limit for WSPR is around -30dB th= en is=20 there a means for roughly estimating or indeed accurately calculatin= g the=20 Expected Max Range (EMR) at that power setting and antenna=20 configuration?

Clearly, there are=20 differences between separate Rx stations but if one knows the ratio= between=20 two or more Rx stations then it should be possible to pro-rate or es= timate at=20 least the signal strength at a given Rx based on its performance wit= h other=20 known signals.

If I can do 916km=20 with an SNR of say -22dB then how much further would the remaining=  8dB=20 or so of WSPR detection get me, assuming the other Rx has the same= capability=20 as GM4SLV and if their capability is different, then is it fine to= factor for=20 the dB difference over known paths/signals?=

Thanks in advance=20 for any answers or pointers and best wishes to all for a great=20 2010

With= best=20 regards

 

 

Jim<= /o:p>

 

 

Dr.= James Cowburn=20 G7NKS

E james.= cowburn@virgin.net

 

 




--

http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot= .com/
http://www.g3xbm.c= o.uk
http://w= ww.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM=20    GQRP 1678      ISWL=20 G11088


Eingehende eMail ist virenfrei.
Von AVG =FCberpr=FCft= - www.avg.de=20
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