Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mb12.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mb12.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.32]) by air-md09.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMD094-8b974d5c02208e; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:58:08 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb12.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E0392380001B8; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Ppkgj-000325-7X for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:57:13 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ppkgi-00031w-9D for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:57:12 +0000 Received: from out1.ip02ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.238]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ppkgg-0002LK-4S for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:57:12 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AisBAG+QW01cB91z/2dsb2JhbACCSpBpA4Nvjkd0vC6FXgSBZZBq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.60,480,1291593600"; d="scan'208,217";a="355951811" Received: from host-92-7-221-115.as43234.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.7.221.115]) by out1.ip02ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2011 16:57:02 +0000 Message-ID: <00a101cbcdfa$85953f60$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935D3E@temps153538.tus.uk.thales> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:56:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009E_01CBCDFA.852EB560" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60204d5c021d2c36 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01CBCDFA.852EB560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a lot of test equipment that could be used for Field strength= measurements but I would not venture to estimate any stations ERP bec= ause there are too many variables. I believe what they tell me and if= its plus/minus a bit so what!!!!!!!!!!!11 I am now happy Paul has settled down.=20 G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Reeves Paul=20 To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 4:35 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Hi Chris, You are probably right, most amateurs would not have the sort of kit= I have available at work, but for home use some very good measuring= equipment at LF is certainly available to amateurs on the surplus mar= ket, both Mal and myself have Siemens D2155 SLMs, for example (and it= not too expensive, less than most rice boxes), and calibration is qui= te easy - even for antennas - to get very accurate field strength meas= urements. The problem then comes down to predicting the propagation ch= aracteristics - and this IS the problem area, I quite agree. Having de= alt with LF propagation in a 'marine' context I'm well aware of the va= riability of the models! I may have been too hasty in responding to Mal but he does have that= effect on people :-) 73 Paul G8GJA .-----Original Message----- From: Chris [mailto:c.ashby435@btinternet.com] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:45 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Hi Paul, I think Mal was quite rightly referring to test equipment availabl= e to the professionals as opposed to 'us' amateurs. There was a discussion on here a year or so ago where it was gener= ally agreed that most of our 'estimates' at ERP had quite a large degr= ee of likely error! Vy 73, Chris, G4AYT. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Reeves Paul=20 To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, The reference ...'especially by Radio Amateurs' could well be= considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I suppo= se that the only qualified people would be marine radio officers? I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be fo= rthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisatio= ns in the future? Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Toni It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some hundreds of mil= es away. especially by Radio Amateurs. I have seen figures in the past and after a detailed mathemati= cal analysis the concluded statement was that this could be 6 dB eithe= r way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or maybe 4w erp= or even worse a lot less. Let them believe what they like hi g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: HB9ASB=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Thanks Rik I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would ha= ve around 4W EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 10= 0km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low.= Anyway, it shows me again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP.= Even Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-) 73 de Toni 2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe Hello Toni, group, I measured the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39. Distances to HE3OM (504km) and DCF39 (515km) are almost id= entical. This might give the US stations a clue what signal strengt= h they can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Tony could use to be= copied. 73, Rik ON7YD -------------------------------------------------------------------- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB [hb9asb@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't= leave the station running unattended. And the nights I can spend in= Sottens are limited by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no tria= l before, I have just next Friday night. If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two wee= ks from stations 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be= possible to span 6000km using QRSS10. On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let'= s say with QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or two= QSO's. May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and= listen on 80m. This would give more stations the opportunity to conta= ct us. However, if there is a station from the East Coast we copy in= QRSS10 it would get the priority. What do you think about this approach? 73 de Toni 2011/2/15 James Moritz Dear Toni, LF Group, HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal tha= n most Eu stations, so I guess you have a good chance of being copied= in NA on Friday night, unless the propagation is very poor. But as yo= u will have seen from the activity last weekend, forward planning is= always a good thing, especially where a single QSO takes hours. If po= ssible, I would suggest transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM be= tween now and Friday, so that North American stations can get a good= idea what QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to re= ceive any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also know wh= at the requirement will be in the other direction. Finally, I have usu= ally found reception of US stations is best just before dawn here, so= make sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday! Good luck,=20 Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU=20 This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communic= ation intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom= it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be= proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have= received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt,= and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the= businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liabilit= y of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any= attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept= liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses,= and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before open= ing any attachment. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communicatio= n intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it= is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be pro= prietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have recei= ved this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and im= mediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the busi= nesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of= this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attac= hment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liabi= lity for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and wou= ld advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any= attachment. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01CBCDFA.852EB560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a lot of test equipment that could be= used for=20 Field strength measurements but I would not venture to estimate any st= ations ERP=20 because there are too many variables. I believe what they tell me and= if its=20 plus/minus a bit so what!!!!!!!!!!!11
I am now happy Paul has settled down. <= /DIV>
G3KEV
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Reeves Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February 16,= 2011 4:35=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE

Hi=20 Chris,
 
You=20 are probably right, most amateurs would not have the sort of kit I&n= bsp; have=20 available at work, but for home use some very good measuring eq= uipment at=20 LF is certainly available to amateurs on the surplus market, both Ma= l and=20 myself have Siemens D2155 SLMs, for example  (and it not= too=20 expensive, less than most rice boxes), and calibration is quite easy= - even=20 for antennas - to get very accurate field strength measurements. The= problem=20 then comes down to predicting the propagation characteristics - and= =20 this IS the problem area, I quite agree. Having dealt with LF= propagation=20 in a 'marine' context I'm well aware of the variability of the=20 models!
I=20 may have been too hasty in responding to Mal but he does have that= effect on=20 people :-)
 
73
Paul     G8GJA
.-----Ori= ginal=20 Message-----
From: Chris=20 [mailto:c.ashby435@btinternet.com]
Sent: 16 February 2011= =20 15:45
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject:= Re: LF: TA=20 TONITE

Hi Paul,
I think Mal was quite rightly ref= erring to test=20 equipment available to the professionals as opposed to 'us'=20 amateurs.
There was a discussion on here a= year or so ago=20 where it was generally agreed that most of our 'estimates' at ERP= had quite=20 a large degree of likely error!
Vy 73,
Chris, G4AYT.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Reeves Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February= 16, 2011=20 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONIT= E

Mal,
 
The reference  ...'especially by Radi= o Amateurs'  could=20 well be considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by= fact. I=20 suppose that the only qualified people would be marine radio=20 officers?
I will not request a retraction - knowing= you it would not be=20 forthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping gener= alisations=20 in the future?
 
Paul    G8GJA=
-----Original Message-----
Fro= m: mal hamilton=20 [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 201= 1=20 15:03
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject= : Re:=20 LF: TA TONITE

Toni
It is all Guesswork trying to measure= ERP some=20 hundreds of miles away. especially by Radio Amateurs.
I have seen figures in the past and af= ter a=20 detailed mathematical analysis the concluded statement was tha= t this=20 could be 6 dB either way, in other words the erp measured= could be=20 1W erp or maybe 4w erp or even worse a lot less.
Let them believe what they like hi
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----=
From:=20 HB9ASB=20
Sent: Wednesday, Febr= uary 16,=20 2011 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: TA= TONITE

Thanks Rik
I've read somewhere that DCF39= has 40kW=20 EIRP. So we would have around 4W EIRP. Last week a station= measured=20 our field strength, 100km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is= probably=20 a little bit to low. Anyway, it shows me again, that most am= ateurs=20 overestimate their ERP. Even Mal has probably not the Watt= he claims=20 ;-)
73 de Toni

2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe <Rik.= Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Hello Toni, group,
 
I measured=20 the HE3OM signal 41dB down=20 on DCF39.
Distances to HE3OM (504k= m)=20 and DCF39 (515km) are almost identical.
This might give the US= stations a clue=20 what signal strength they can expect from HE3OM and what= QRSS speed=20 Tony could use to be copied.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD
 
 
Van:= owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= namens HB9ASB=20 [hb9asb@gmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16=20 februari 2011 8:44
Aan: rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp:=20 Re: LF: TA TONITE

Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group

Unfortunately the= tower is=20 not nearby my house and I can't leave the station running= =20 unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sottens are limi= ted by my=20 health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial before, I hav= e just=20 next Friday night.
If I take a look at the reports we= got in the=20 past two weeks from stations 2000-3000km away (always good= audible),=20 it should be possible to span 6000km using QRSS10.
On= the=20 receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's say= with=20 QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or tw= o QSO's.=20 May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10= and=20 listen on 80m. This would give more stations the opportuni= ty to=20 contact us. However, if there is a station from the East= Coast we=20 copy in QRSS10 it would get the priority.
What do you= think about=20 this approach?

73 de Toni

2011/2/15 James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com><= /SPAN>
Dear=20 Toni, LF Group,

HE3OM has the advantage of a much= stronger=20 TX signal than most Eu stations, so I guess you have a= good chance=20 of being copied in NA on Friday night, unless the propag= ation is=20 very poor. But as you will have seen from the activity= last=20 weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, especi= ally where=20 a single QSO takes hours. If possible, I would suggest= =20 transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM between now= and=20 Friday, so that North American stations can get a good= idea what=20 QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to= receive=20 any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also= know what=20 the requirement will be in the other direction. Finally,= I have=20 usually found reception of US stations is best just befo= re dawn=20 here, so make sure you are not going to be busy on=20 Saturday!

Good luck,=20

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU=20




This email, including any attachm= ent, is a=20 confidential communication intended solely for the use of the in= dividual=20 or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which= is=20 private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional= privilege.=20 If you have received this email in error, please notify the send= er upon=20 receipt, and immediately delete it from your system.

<= BR>

Anything contained in this email= that is not=20 connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorse= d by nor=20 is the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable= precautions to=20 ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viru= ses, we=20 cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of= software=20 viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus chec= ks before=20 opening any attachment.


=

This email, including any attachment,= is a=20 confidential communication intended solely for the use of the indivi= dual or=20 entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is pri= vate and=20 may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If yo= u have=20 received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt,= and=20 immediately delete it from your system.


Anything contained in this email that= is not=20 connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by= nor is=20 the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable preca= utions to=20 ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses,= we cannot=20 accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software vi= ruses, and=20 would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening= any=20 attachment.


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