Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w8AEmEth026227 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 16:48:17 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1fzNII-0003C7-AC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:36:02 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1fzNID-0003By-NF for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:35:57 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1fzNIB-0000m8-6g for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:35:56 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.97]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id zMv2fGbQuOG49zNI6fK03e; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:35:50 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1536590150; bh=zOUFRTrzn3iRtWR1vB/6S9AEEqEyTwOw3UZxGv487Tw=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=nUpOjdHK2a0WPwAugM2Nf1U18mL3LnNdC0DzzzkrroBtrya00+q//f1Npedal86su XvXnEhK2qnEWnT2iIC+HI818JBH02YeYsX/Rohjpw4sN0S00Bp7OeuVqrcxa7f9DBa ckP10hRaYSrECjkssN1oICEb9LO2XZwn97N21drHzuee5yQf+t8uonJjKPO51OpjCp m9Ar5ywTWwUjslCN0gq+O1fui6PikYCTy4tTMiZeVBFspknVLfVcI28BLFBAyZ6TDf JCT7gzKQ3XfK6gV4fq9UaE7Ss3bAiqXDmW6dca3LJW3gYxSQUPI5IvPaiZ9wzQPq4C KpSr/2LQsNmsw== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:a593:49:2f36:f121]) by resomta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id zNI4fH72zDKDWzNI5f2MHB; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:35:50 +0000 From: To: References: <5B94344B.3030503@posteo.de> <165bb2c1d17-1ebb-76dc@webjasstg-vaa41.srv.aolmail.net> <005c01d448c3$ffd50480$ff7f0d80$@comcast.net> <5B966518.9050108@posteo.de> In-Reply-To: <5B966518.9050108@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:35:47 -0400 Message-ID: <00a001d44913$9140b410$b3c21c30$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJ8hoi9XVemPdMh1725juDHpoCQfwJjSrBnAeqj788CyxdmQaNgUHPw Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO/B/8MdcX7N7IgtexTGu551QfS76DR6mRuQK0xslrjNMbyrktuooSbjLTEP+8Ds17pRENB+f4OYg9A3TQFvAX1cr90T+moTDnXCbnAEL3GrOZF2nXL6 3+NdXSVtp1j56+E1kZOccXahUs/vPBPse1ylLzkRqrDVmr2qGn/OW4YHlAoQH8TZTpL/MqzI9AJOrN+omGN6XLDE+F1kKNjywrR8MU/mJD1plKCCeyW3omdo X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Hello Stefan, Excellent results, and fascinating. For the 13 WSPR reports below, is the antenna in dipole-on-ground mode (ends not grounded) or in earth-loop mode (ends grounded)? [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hvanesce[at]comcast.net) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 09f275461fd2adc315ca25d42524842b Subject: RE: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this weekend Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A1_01D448F2.0A32BD90" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=5.0 tests=HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01D448F2.0A32BD90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Stefan, =20 Excellent results, and fascinating. =20 For the 13 WSPR reports below, is the antenna in dipole-on-ground mode = (ends not grounded) or in earth-loop mode (ends grounded)?=20 =20 Was the 10W that you mentioned the power-amplifier output power? =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 8:36 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend =20 Hi LF,=20 The experiment is finished. Batteries are back charging. These are the best reports: Timestamp Call MHz SNR Drift Grid Pwr Reporter RGrid km az 2018-09-09 03:30=20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -27=20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 SM3LNM=20 JP82qg=20 1559=20 20=20 2018-09-09 10:30=20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -24 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 2E0ILY=20 IO82qv=20 767=20 303=20 2018-09-09 04:10=20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -25=20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 G3XDV=20 IO91vt=20 568=20 300=20 2018-09-08 12:20=20 DK7FC=20 0.137424=20 -16 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DL4RAJ=20 JN68kj=20 449=20 103=20 2018-09-09 10:20=20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -7=20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DL0AO=20 JN59vk=20 349=20 89=20 2018-09-09 01:20=20 DK7FC=20 0.137426=20 -24=20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 PA0RDT=20 JO11tm=20 327=20 315=20 2018-09-09 16:30 =20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -21 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 PI4THT=20 JO32kf=20 306=20 359=20 2018-09-09 07:30 =20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -6 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DF6NM=20 JN59nj=20 301=20 90=20 2018-09-09 01:40 =20 DK7FC=20 0.137429=20 -14 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DC0DX/RF=20 JO31lk=20 218=20 0=20 2018-09-08 21:50=20 DK7FC=20 0.137424=20 -28=20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DC5AL-R=20 JO31lk=20 218=20 0=20 2018-09-09 00:50=20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 -27=20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DF2JP=20 JO31hh=20 205=20 354=20 2018-09-09 07:50 =20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 +1 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DK7FC/HD=20 JN49ik=20 127=20 91=20 2018-09-09 09:50 =20 DK7FC=20 0.137425=20 0 =20 0=20 JN39=20 1=20 DL1GCD/1=20 JN48ar=20 115=20 136=20 It was interesting to see the special characteristic for such an = unconventional antenna. Another interesting thing was to learn about the = different feed point impedances. I had no idea before... Markus calculated 0.4 % efficiency for daytime in low distances, which = is not bad at all. The actual distance to Markus is 230 km and with just = 10 W it is possible to have a normal CW QSO! But the night characteristics are not really favourable :-) It would have been interesting to have someone receiving with a loop = antenna, which could pick up the high angle radiation much better than = an E field antenna, eventually.=20 There is so much to play with. It never ends :-) 73, Stefan Am 10.09.2018 07:06, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 Hello Markus and Stefan, =20 Markus mentioned: =E2=80=9Chigh angle radiation =E2=80=A6possibly leading to deeper fading = at intermediate ranges=E2=80=9D =20 I would guess the same. =20 I checked the following to see if the 900m/137kHz configuration (> 1/4 = wavelength freespace, >> 1/4 wavelength in earth), or some particular = earth conductivity, or very-close-proximity to ground, or perhaps some = hemispherical spreading in earth ground currents might reliably mitigate = high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate ranges. a) https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2005RS003298 b) https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/64D/jresv64Dn1p27_A1b.pdf c) =E2=80=9CCharacteristics of a Power Line Used as a VLF = Antenna=E2=80=9D (Dazey, Radio Science 1982) =20 Items (a, b and c) augmented a perspective that experiments are more = reliable than theory in this realm. I couldn=E2=80=99t find any basis in theory for ruling out = high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate ranges, even with = 900m/137kHz, and earth-loop and dipole-on-earth configurations, = especially given some possibility of Eh+Ev nulls. =20 Perhaps more valuable than much of the theory is that the transmitter = provided good far-field signals on first attempts at 1570 Hz, 1970 Hz, = 2470 Hz, 2970 Hz and 137 kHz. That=E2=80=99s really something to think = about. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 5:53 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend =20 Hi Stefan, indeed your signal has been very consistent around 5 uV/m and -8 to -10 = dB in the afternoon. At 230 km range, this would indicate a radiated = power around 40 mW (EMRP), or 0.4% antenna efficiency. Around nightfall, = heavy QSB set in, with occaional minima where the signal fell below the = decode threshold but was still ghastly visible in the waterfall with = heavy RDF colour aberrations. I suspect that the diplole emits more high = angle radiation than a vertical, possibly leading to deeper fading at = intermediate ranges.=20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Sa, 8. Sept 2018 22:45 Betreff: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend Thanks to the many stations beeing RX-active on LF WSPR tonite. It is very strange, the SNR reported by the stations below 500 km=20 distance was very good in daytime but now at night there are not more=20 stations receiving me, except 2 reports by 2E0ILY. Also the software just reports JN39 instead of JN39WI. Maybe some reports are not uploaded or shown on the database, because of = conflicting locators for the same callsign? I can hardly imagine that nothing comes through at night. Very odd. Does someone have an explanation what can cause these good results=20 during the day and such bad results at night? 73, Stefan PS: My QRG is 137.425 kHz and starts each xx:x0 (each 10 minutes). Maybe = someone can see somethning on the waterfall display? ... ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01D448F2.0A32BD90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Stefan,

 

Excellent results, and fascinating.

 

For the 13 WSPR reports below, is the antenna in dipole-on-ground = mode (ends not grounded) or in earth-loop mode (ends grounded)? =

 

Was the 10W that you mentioned the power-amplifier output = power?

 

73,

 

Jim AA5BW

 

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of = DK7FC
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 8:36 = AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: = Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend

 

Hi LF,

The experiment is = finished. Batteries are back charging.
These are the best = reports:

 2018-09-09 = 10:30 

 2018-09-09 = 04:10 

 2018-09-08 = 12:20 

 2018-09-09 = 10:20 

 2018-09-09 = 01:20 

 2018-09-09 16:30  =

 2018-09-09 07:30  =

 2018-09-09 01:40  =

 2018-09-09 07:50  =

 2018-09-09 09:50  =


It was interesting to see the special = characteristic for such an unconventional antenna. Another interesting = thing was to learn about the different feed point impedances. I had no = idea before...

Markus calculated 0.4 % efficiency for daytime in = low distances, which is not bad at all. The actual distance to Markus is = 230 km and with just 10 W it is possible to have a normal CW QSO!
But = the night characteristics are not really favourable :-)

It would = have been interesting to have someone receiving with a loop antenna, = which could pick up the high angle radiation much better than an E field = antenna, eventually.
There is so much to play with. It never ends = :-)

73, Stefan


Am 10.09.2018 07:06, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net: =

Hello Markus = and Stefan,

 

Markus = mentioned:

=E2=80=9Chigh= angle radiation =E2=80=A6possibly leading to deeper fading at = intermediate ranges=E2=80=9D

 =

I would = guess the same.

 =

I checked = the following to see if the 900m/137kHz configuration (> 1/4 = wavelength freespace, >> 1/4 wavelength in earth), or some = particular earth conductivity, or very-close-proximity to ground, or = perhaps some hemispherical spreading in earth ground currents might = reliably mitigate high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate = ranges.

a) https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2005RS0032= 98

b) https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/64D/jresv64Dn1p27_A1b.pdf

c) = =E2=80=9CCharacteristics of a Power Line Used as a VLF Antenna=E2=80=9D = (Dazey, Radio Science 1982)

 =

Items (a, b = and c) augmented a perspective that experiments are more reliable than = theory in this realm.

I = couldn=E2=80=99t find any basis in theory for ruling out = high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate ranges, even with = 900m/137kHz, and earth-loop and dipole-on-earth configurations, = especially given some possibility of Eh+Ev = nulls.

 =

Perhaps more = valuable than much of the theory is that the transmitter provided good = far-field signals on first attempts at 1570 Hz, 1970 Hz, 2470 Hz, 2970 = Hz and 137 kHz. That=E2=80=99s really something to think = about.

 =

73,

 =

Jim AA5BW =      

 =

 

 

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester
Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 5:53 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground = loop, this weekend

 

Hi = Stefan,

indeed your signal has been very consistent around 5 = uV/m and -8 to -10 dB in the afternoon. At 230 km range, this would = indicate a radiated power around 40 mW (EMRP), or 0.4% antenna = efficiency. Around nightfall, heavy QSB set in, with occaional minima = where the signal fell below the decode threshold but was still = ghastly visible in the waterfall with heavy RDF colour = aberrations. I suspect that the diplole emits more high angle = radiation than a vertical, possibly leading to deeper = fading at intermediate ranges. 

Best 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC = <selberdenken@posteo.de>
= An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= >
Verschickt: Sa, 8. Sept 2018 22:45
Betreff: Re: LF: Re: = 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend


Thanks to = the many stations beeing RX-active on LF WSPR tonite.

It is very = strange, the SNR reported by the stations below 500 km
distance was = very good in daytime but now at night there are not more
stations = receiving me, except 2 reports by 2E0ILY.
Also the software just = reports JN39 instead of JN39WI.
Maybe some reports are not uploaded = or shown on the database, because of
conflicting locators for the = same callsign?
I can hardly imagine that nothing comes through at = night. Very odd.
Does someone have an explanation what can cause = these good results
during the day and such bad results at = night?

73, Stefan

PS: My QRG is 137.425 kHz and starts = each xx:x0 (each 10 minutes). Maybe
someone can see somethning on = the waterfall = display?
...

------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01D448F2.0A32BD90--

Timestamp

Call

MHz

SNR

Drift

Grid

Pwr

Reporter

RGrid

km

az

 2018-09-09 = 03:30 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -27 

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 SM3LNM 

 JP82qg 

 1559 

 20 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -24  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 2E0ILY 

 IO82qv 

 767 

 303 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -25 

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 G3XDV 

 IO91vt 

 568 

 300 

 DK7FC 

 0.137424 

 -16  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DL4RAJ

 JN68kj 

 449 

 103 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -7 

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DL0AO 

 JN59vk 

 349 

 89 

 DK7FC 

 0.137426 

 -24 

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 PA0RDT 

 JO11tm 

 327 

 315 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -21  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 PI4THT 

 JO32kf 

 306 

 359 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -6  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DF6NM 

 JN59nj 

 301 

 90 

 DK7FC 

 0.137429 

 -14  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DC0DX/RF 

 JO31lk 

 218 

 0 

 2018-09-08 = 21:50 

 DK7FC 

 0.137424 

 -28 =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DC5AL-R 

 JO31lk 

 218 

 0 

 2018-09-09 = 00:50 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 -27 

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DF2JP 

 JO31hh 

 205 

 354 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 +1  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DK7FC/HD 

 JN49ik 

 127 

 91 

 DK7FC 

 0.137425 

 0  =

 0 

 JN39 

 1 

 DL1GCD/1 

 JN48ar 

 115 

 136