Return-Path: <owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Received: from mtain-ma08.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-ma08.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.16]) by air-ma06.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMA061-b5284c5474fb6d; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:09:47 -0400
Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20])
	by mtain-ma08.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id AD3663800018F;
	Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:09:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14)
	id 1OfHQZ-00035S-3C
	for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:59 +0100
Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net)
	by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14)
	id 1OfHQY-00035G-D6
	for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:58 +0100
Received: from out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.241])
	by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63)
	(envelope-from <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>)
	id 1OfHQW-0003qF-Q9
	for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:58 +0100
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AngFACISVExcHYA8/2dsb2JhbACPcQOQM3G+NIU5BItP
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,295,1278284400"; 
   d="scan'208,217";a="308030867"
Received: from unknown (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.29.128.60])
  by out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2010 20:08:51 +0100
Message-ID: <009b01cb30e3$ce4292d0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf>
From: "mal hamilton" <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
References: <CD23FAD2-C25C-4491-B7A6-66370074F9DB@hurontel.on.ca><AANLkTi=-0nwKg3SiO683YX4Wo5oq5aQ74aE5pSbbyv02@mail.gmail.com><4C51FA69.1030202@iup.uni-heidelberg.de><AANLkTi=pxmqqQmySJ=LHuphU+q1ni+jMSczUSp=m8agv@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikOqWtr7wecaXmzjVZauERuNNuFDpBz7uhAEaSw@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikUcSDQyzvYm78aDYX5KnRxy91hkh48b4k7LYhm@mail.gmail.com><4C529C6B.9070908@iup.uni-heidelberg.de><4C53EB92.4000806@legal-medicine.de><4C53F284.7070307@iup.uni-heidelberg.de><003e01cb30c5$fc7cf7d0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><AANLkTimMAZL9FoQ9Tt-D2pbFGfRUGfOCNLoZm5=+zmcW@mail.gmail.com><007501cb30de$a9933160$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <AANLkTinNXKExVW9w9KtbZMaJzx6k2eb0+L2sew6PGpja@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:48 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001
Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570"
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE 
	autolearn=no version=2.63
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group
X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false
x-aol-global-disposition: G
x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60104c5474f96a0f
X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20


------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No point me testing if noone watching
mal/g3kev

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Gary - G4WGT=20
  To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
  Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:53 PM
  Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment


  Mal,


  Not watching at the moment as Stefan stated his tests would be tomor=
row from about 0800utc.


  And due to increased kite antenna length to 200 metres but using sam=
e inductance that the frequency would be lower (ie. 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz)


  If you look at his grabber you will see that Stefan is not Txing.


  http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_VLF_Grabber2.htm=
l


  Cheers,


  Gary - G4WGT.











  On 31 July 2010 19:31, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote:

    Gary
    Can u see a trace there at present, he could be testing
    mal/g3kev

      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Gary - G4WGT=20
      To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
      Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:22 PM
      Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment


      Mal, LF,=20


      I will be watching for Stefan on 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz (not 8.97kHz=
 as you keep stating) as you may have read in his mails. I will be usi=
ng a loop & pre-amp as designed by Jim M0BMU.


      Battery is now fully charged & system ready to go.


      73


      Gary - G4WGT.



      On 31 July 2010 16:35, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrot=
e:

        Stefan
        Who has a RX setup that will be able to look for your signal,=
 I seem to be
        the only one so far. There is a trace on 8.97 at present but=
 noone else can
        see it.
        There is very little response via this reflector and vy little=
 acty at
        present on 137 and 500.
        de mal/g3kev





        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" <schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
        To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
        Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:53 AM
        Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment



        > Hello Peter,
        >
        > Better say 6,6 +-200 Hz. It is still not certain where the=
 resonance
        > will be, sorry. There are to many assumtions, estimations an=
d
        calculations.
        >
        > On 137 kHz the measured C for 100m is 580pF (measured with=
 a RC bridge
        > and by measuring the L and calculating C). But EZNEC shows=
 a lower C.
        > This could be, since a 100m vertical is not absolutely short=
 against
        > Lambda and so the sems to occur some impedance transformatio=
n which
        > "looks/behaves" like a higherC.
        >
        > On <9 kHz the 100m wire IS short against lambda and so i loo=
se this
        > benefit. There, the actual C is present. The L of my variome=
ter part in
        > the BIG coil is estimated to be 30 mH. Maybe it is even more=
 and the
        > overall L is higher than L(coil)+L(variometer) due to the be=
tter
        > magnetic coupling. So maybe i have less C and more L than th=
ought on 8,97.
        >
        > When doubling the antenna height from 100m to 200m and assum=
ing 5 pF/m
        > the C is doubled as well. So i thought i will come out at 6,=
34 kHz
        > (8,97/sqrt(2)). But this may just a rough estimate. EZNEC sa=
ys the C
        > factor is not 2 but 1,88 so i would come out some 100 Hz abo=
ve.
        >
        > So the question is:
        > What is the actual antenna C for 100m
        > What is the actual (maximum and average) L
        > What is the C factor when going from 100m to 200m
        >
        > This are many uncertainties and so i didn't want to tap the=
 coil at 70%
        > of the winding to come back to 8,97 kHz but first just to me=
asure out
        > where the resonance will be, to solve these open Questions.=
 Of course,
        > another important and very interesting issue is propagation=
 in the 46km
        > band! :-)
        >
        > So, sorry for that coarse frequency range. Maybe the actual=
 QRG will be
        > written here in the reflector and can be seen on my garbber2=
 but first
        > lets hope for proper WX!
        >
        > 73 and tnx, Stefan/DK7FC
        >
        >
        >
        > Am 31.07.2010 11:23, schrieb pws:
        > > Hi Stefan,
        > >
        > > Question: do you have a realistic guess of the frequency=
 window of your
        > > transmission around 6.5kHz, e.g. +-100Hz?
        > >
        > > You wrote:
        > >
        > >> ....
        > >> on *Sunday, the 1. August*, i will make a new kite experi=
ment.
        > >> ...
        > >> i will transmit at arround *6,5 kHz,
        > >> ...
        > >> Starting time is* 8 UTC*, maybe some time later
        > >> ...
        > >> TX QTH is as usual in JN49IS, 49.77647N 8.699525.
        > >>
        > > Distance is 516km, heading 10deg. to Kiel.
        > >
        > > Just modified the software running at ~17mHz of resolution=
. Antennas are
        > > two crossed ferrite loops feeding some BC550 in parallel=
 buffered by
        > > NE5532. Both amplifiers are connected to a M-Audio Audioph=
ile 192
        running
        > > at 24 kHz on an Intel Atom 330 "shoe-box" under Linux.
        > >
        > > 73 from Baltic Sea,
        > > Peter
        > >
        >







------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-88=
59-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No point me testing if noone watching=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mal/g3kev</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr   style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px=
; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=
>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV     style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=
 black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dg4wgt@tiscali.co.uk href=3D"mailto:g4wgt@tiscali.co.uk">G=
ary -=20
  G4WGT</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drsgb_lf_group@=
blacksheep.org     href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_l=
f_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 31, 2010=
 7:53=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th=
 VLF kite=20
  experiment</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Mal,
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Not watching at the moment as Stefan stated his tests would be=
 tomorrow=20
  from about 0800utc.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>And due to increased kite antenna length to 200 metres but usin=
g same=20
  inductance that the frequency would be lower (ie. 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz)<=
/DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>If you look at his grabber you will see that Stefan is not Txin=
g.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><A     href=3D"http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK=
7FC_VLF_Grabber2.html">http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/D=
K7FC_VLF_Grabber2.html</A></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Gary - G4WGT.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><BR>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 31 July 2010 19:31, mal hamilton <SPAN=
     dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A     href=3D"mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net">g3kevm=
al@talktalk.net</A>&gt;</SPAN>=20
  wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote     style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARG=
IN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gary</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can u see a trace there at presen=
t, he could be=20
    testing</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mal/g3kev</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr       style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-L=
EFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIG=
HT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3Dim>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </D=
IV>
      <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B=
> <A         title=3Dg4wgt@tiscali.co.uk href=3D"mailto:g4wgt@tiscali.=
co.uk"         target=3D_blank>Gary - G4WGT</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A         title=3Drs=
gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org         href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacks=
heep.org"         target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A> </D=
IV></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV class=3Dh5>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 31,=
 2010 7:22=20
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VLF: DK7FC's=
 6th VLF=20
      kite experiment</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>Mal, LF,=20
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV>I will be watching for Stefan on 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz (not 8.97=
kHz as you=20
      keep stating) as you may have read in his mails. I will be using=
 a loop=20
      &amp; pre-amp as designed by Jim M0BMU.</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV>Battery is now fully charged &amp; system ready to go.</DIV=
>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV>73</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV>Gary - G4WGT.</DIV>
      <DIV><BR><BR>
      <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 31 July 2010 16:35, mal hamilton <SP=
AN         dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net"   =
      target=3D_blank>g3kevmal@talktalk.net</A>&gt;</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
      <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote         style=3D"PADDING-LEFT:=
 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Stefan<B=
R>Who=20
        has a RX setup that will be able to look for your signal, I se=
em to=20
        be<BR>the only one so far. There is a trace on 8.97 at present=
 but noone=20
        else can<BR>see it.<BR>There is very little response via this=
 reflector=20
        and vy little acty at<BR>present on 137 and 500.<BR>de mal/g3k=
ev<BR>
        <DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "St=
efan=20
        Sch=E4fer" &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.d=
e"           target=3D_blank>schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de</A>&gt;<BR=
>To: &lt;<A           href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org"  =
         target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>&gt;<BR>Sent:=
 Saturday,=20
        July 31, 2010 10:53 AM<BR>Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF ki=
te=20
        experiment<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV>&gt; Hello Peter,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Better say 6,6 +-200 Hz=
. It is=20
        still not certain where the resonance<BR>&gt; will be, sorry.=
 There are=20
        to many assumtions, estimations and<BR>calculations.<BR>&gt;<B=
R>&gt; On=20
        137 kHz the measured C for 100m is 580pF (measured with a RC=
=20
        bridge<BR>&gt; and by measuring the L and calculating C). But=
 EZNEC=20
        shows a lower C.<BR>&gt; This could be, since a 100m vertical=
 is not=20
        absolutely short against<BR>&gt; Lambda and so the sems to occ=
ur some=20
        impedance transformation which<BR>&gt; "looks/behaves" like a=
=20
        higherC.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On &lt;9 kHz the 100m wire IS short=
 against=20
        lambda and so i loose this<BR>&gt; benefit. There, the actual=
 C is=20
        present. The L of my variometer part in<BR>&gt; the BIG coil=
 is=20
        estimated to be 30 mH. Maybe it is even more and the<BR>&gt;=
 overall L=20
        is higher than L(coil)+L(variometer) due to the better<BR>&gt;=
 magnetic=20
        coupling. So maybe i have less C and more L than thought on=20
        8,97.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; When doubling the antenna height from 10=
0m to 200m=20
        and assuming 5 pF/m<BR>&gt; the C is doubled as well. So i tho=
ught i=20
        will come out at 6,34 kHz<BR>&gt; (8,97/sqrt(2)). But this may=
 just a=20
        rough estimate. EZNEC says the C<BR>&gt; factor is not 2 but=
 1,88 so i=20
        would come out some 100 Hz above.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; So the quest=
ion=20
        is:<BR>&gt; What is the actual antenna C for 100m<BR>&gt; What=
 is the=20
        actual (maximum and average) L<BR>&gt; What is the C factor wh=
en going=20
        from 100m to 200m<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; This are many uncertainties=
 and so i=20
        didn't want to tap the coil at 70%<BR>&gt; of the winding to=
 come back=20
        to 8,97 kHz but first just to measure out<BR>&gt; where the re=
sonance=20
        will be, to solve these open Questions. Of course,<BR>&gt; ano=
ther=20
        important and very interesting issue is propagation in the 46k=
m<BR>&gt;=20
        band! :-)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; So, sorry for that coarse frequency=
 range.=20
        Maybe the actual QRG will be<BR>&gt; written here in the refle=
ctor and=20
        can be seen on my garbber2 but first<BR>&gt; lets hope for pro=
per=20
        WX!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 73 and tnx,=20
        Stefan/DK7FC<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Am 31.07.2010 11:=
23,=20
        schrieb pws:<BR>&gt; &gt; Hi Stefan,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=
 Question:=20
        do you have a realistic guess of the frequency window of your<=
BR>&gt;=20
        &gt; transmission around 6.5kHz, e.g. +-100Hz?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR=
>&gt; &gt;=20
        You wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; ....<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 on=20
        *Sunday, the 1. August*, i will make a new kite experiment.<BR=
>&gt;=20
        &gt;&gt; ...<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; i will transmit at arround *6,5=
=20
        kHz,<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; ...<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; Starting time is*=
 8 UTC*,=20
        maybe some time later<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; ...<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; TX=
 QTH is as=20
        usual in JN49IS, 49.77647N 8.699525.<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;=
 &gt;=20
        Distance is 516km, heading 10deg. to Kiel.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt=
; &gt;=20
        Just modified the software running at ~17mHz of resolution. An=
tennas=20
        are<BR>&gt; &gt; two crossed ferrite loops feeding some BC550=
 in=20
        parallel buffered by<BR>&gt; &gt; NE5532. Both amplifiers are=
 connected=20
        to a M-Audio Audiophile 192<BR>running<BR>&gt; &gt; at 24 kHz=
 on an=20
        Intel Atom 330 "shoe-box" under Linux.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &g=
t; 73 from=20
        Baltic Sea,<BR>&gt; &gt; Peter<BR>&gt;=20
        &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></D=
IV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570--