Return-Path: <owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> Received: from mtain-ma08.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-ma08.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.16]) by air-ma06.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMA061-b5284c5474fb6d; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:09:47 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-ma08.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id AD3663800018F; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OfHQZ-00035S-3C for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:59 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OfHQY-00035G-D6 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:58 +0100 Received: from out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.241]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>) id 1OfHQW-0003qF-Q9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:58 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AngFACISVExcHYA8/2dsb2JhbACPcQOQM3G+NIU5BItP X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,295,1278284400"; d="scan'208,217";a="308030867" Received: from unknown (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.29.128.60]) by out1.ip05ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2010 20:08:51 +0100 Message-ID: <009b01cb30e3$ce4292d0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> References: <CD23FAD2-C25C-4491-B7A6-66370074F9DB@hurontel.on.ca><AANLkTi=-0nwKg3SiO683YX4Wo5oq5aQ74aE5pSbbyv02@mail.gmail.com><4C51FA69.1030202@iup.uni-heidelberg.de><AANLkTi=pxmqqQmySJ=LHuphU+q1ni+jMSczUSp=m8agv@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikOqWtr7wecaXmzjVZauERuNNuFDpBz7uhAEaSw@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikUcSDQyzvYm78aDYX5KnRxy91hkh48b4k7LYhm@mail.gmail.com><4C529C6B.9070908@iup.uni-heidelberg.de><4C53EB92.4000806@legal-medicine.de><4C53F284.7070307@iup.uni-heidelberg.de><003e01cb30c5$fc7cf7d0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><AANLkTimMAZL9FoQ9Tt-D2pbFGfRUGfOCNLoZm5=+zmcW@mail.gmail.com><007501cb30de$a9933160$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <AANLkTinNXKExVW9w9KtbZMaJzx6k2eb0+L2sew6PGpja@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:08:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60104c5474f96a0f X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No point me testing if noone watching mal/g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary - G4WGT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:53 PM Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment Mal, Not watching at the moment as Stefan stated his tests would be tomor= row from about 0800utc. And due to increased kite antenna length to 200 metres but using sam= e inductance that the frequency would be lower (ie. 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz) If you look at his grabber you will see that Stefan is not Txing. http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK7FC_VLF_Grabber2.htm= l Cheers, Gary - G4WGT. On 31 July 2010 19:31, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote: Gary Can u see a trace there at present, he could be testing mal/g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary - G4WGT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:22 PM Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment Mal, LF,=20 I will be watching for Stefan on 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz (not 8.97kHz= as you keep stating) as you may have read in his mails. I will be usi= ng a loop & pre-amp as designed by Jim M0BMU. Battery is now fully charged & system ready to go. 73 Gary - G4WGT. On 31 July 2010 16:35, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrot= e: Stefan Who has a RX setup that will be able to look for your signal,= I seem to be the only one so far. There is a trace on 8.97 at present but= noone else can see it. There is very little response via this reflector and vy little= acty at present on 137 and 500. de mal/g3kev ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" <schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:53 AM Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF kite experiment > Hello Peter, > > Better say 6,6 +-200 Hz. It is still not certain where the= resonance > will be, sorry. There are to many assumtions, estimations an= d calculations. > > On 137 kHz the measured C for 100m is 580pF (measured with= a RC bridge > and by measuring the L and calculating C). But EZNEC shows= a lower C. > This could be, since a 100m vertical is not absolutely short= against > Lambda and so the sems to occur some impedance transformatio= n which > "looks/behaves" like a higherC. > > On <9 kHz the 100m wire IS short against lambda and so i loo= se this > benefit. There, the actual C is present. The L of my variome= ter part in > the BIG coil is estimated to be 30 mH. Maybe it is even more= and the > overall L is higher than L(coil)+L(variometer) due to the be= tter > magnetic coupling. So maybe i have less C and more L than th= ought on 8,97. > > When doubling the antenna height from 100m to 200m and assum= ing 5 pF/m > the C is doubled as well. So i thought i will come out at 6,= 34 kHz > (8,97/sqrt(2)). But this may just a rough estimate. EZNEC sa= ys the C > factor is not 2 but 1,88 so i would come out some 100 Hz abo= ve. > > So the question is: > What is the actual antenna C for 100m > What is the actual (maximum and average) L > What is the C factor when going from 100m to 200m > > This are many uncertainties and so i didn't want to tap the= coil at 70% > of the winding to come back to 8,97 kHz but first just to me= asure out > where the resonance will be, to solve these open Questions.= Of course, > another important and very interesting issue is propagation= in the 46km > band! :-) > > So, sorry for that coarse frequency range. Maybe the actual= QRG will be > written here in the reflector and can be seen on my garbber2= but first > lets hope for proper WX! > > 73 and tnx, Stefan/DK7FC > > > > Am 31.07.2010 11:23, schrieb pws: > > Hi Stefan, > > > > Question: do you have a realistic guess of the frequency= window of your > > transmission around 6.5kHz, e.g. +-100Hz? > > > > You wrote: > > > >> .... > >> on *Sunday, the 1. August*, i will make a new kite experi= ment. > >> ... > >> i will transmit at arround *6,5 kHz, > >> ... > >> Starting time is* 8 UTC*, maybe some time later > >> ... > >> TX QTH is as usual in JN49IS, 49.77647N 8.699525. > >> > > Distance is 516km, heading 10deg. to Kiel. > > > > Just modified the software running at ~17mHz of resolution= . Antennas are > > two crossed ferrite loops feeding some BC550 in parallel= buffered by > > NE5532. Both amplifiers are connected to a M-Audio Audioph= ile 192 running > > at 24 kHz on an Intel Atom 330 "shoe-box" under Linux. > > > > 73 from Baltic Sea, > > Peter > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-88= 59-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No point me testing if noone watching= </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mal/g3kev</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px= ; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"= > <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:= black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dg4wgt@tiscali.co.uk href=3D"mailto:g4wgt@tiscali.co.uk">G= ary -=20 G4WGT</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_l= f_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 31, 2010= 7:53=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th= VLF kite=20 experiment</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Mal, <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Not watching at the moment as Stefan stated his tests would be= tomorrow=20 from about 0800utc.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>And due to increased kite antenna length to 200 metres but usin= g same=20 inductance that the frequency would be lower (ie. 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz)<= /DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>If you look at his grabber you will see that Stefan is not Txin= g.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><A href=3D"http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/DK= 7FC_VLF_Grabber2.html">http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/D= K7FC_VLF_Grabber2.html</A></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Gary - G4WGT.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR><BR> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 31 July 2010 19:31, mal hamilton <SPAN= dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net">g3kevm= al@talktalk.net</A>></SPAN>=20 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARG= IN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <DIV bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gary</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can u see a trace there at presen= t, he could be=20 testing</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mal/g3kev</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-L= EFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIG= HT: 0px"> <DIV class=3Dim> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </D= IV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B= > <A title=3Dg4wgt@tiscali.co.uk href=3D"mailto:g4wgt@tiscali.= co.uk" target=3D_blank>Gary - G4WGT</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org" target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A> </D= IV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=3Dh5> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 31,= 2010 7:22=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VLF: DK7FC's= 6th VLF=20 kite experiment</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Mal, LF,=20 <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I will be watching for Stefan on 6.6kHz +/- 200Hz (not 8.97= kHz as you=20 keep stating) as you may have read in his mails. I will be using= a loop=20 & pre-amp as designed by Jim M0BMU.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Battery is now fully charged & system ready to go.</DIV= > <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>73</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Gary - G4WGT.</DIV> <DIV><BR><BR> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 31 July 2010 16:35, mal hamilton <SP= AN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net" = target=3D_blank>g3kevmal@talktalk.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT:= 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Stefan<B= R>Who=20 has a RX setup that will be able to look for your signal, I se= em to=20 be<BR>the only one so far. There is a trace on 8.97 at present= but noone=20 else can<BR>see it.<BR>There is very little response via this= reflector=20 and vy little acty at<BR>present on 137 and 500.<BR>de mal/g3k= ev<BR> <DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "St= efan=20 Sch=E4fer" <<A href=3D"mailto:schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.d= e" target=3D_blank>schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de</A>><BR= >To: <<A href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" = target=3D_blank>rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>><BR>Sent:= Saturday,=20 July 31, 2010 10:53 AM<BR>Subject: Re: VLF: DK7FC's 6th VLF ki= te=20 experiment<BR><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>> Hello Peter,<BR>><BR>> Better say 6,6 +-200 Hz= . It is=20 still not certain where the resonance<BR>> will be, sorry.= There are=20 to many assumtions, estimations and<BR>calculations.<BR>><B= R>> On=20 137 kHz the measured C for 100m is 580pF (measured with a RC= =20 bridge<BR>> and by measuring the L and calculating C). But= EZNEC=20 shows a lower C.<BR>> This could be, since a 100m vertical= is not=20 absolutely short against<BR>> Lambda and so the sems to occ= ur some=20 impedance transformation which<BR>> "looks/behaves" like a= =20 higherC.<BR>><BR>> On <9 kHz the 100m wire IS short= against=20 lambda and so i loose this<BR>> benefit. There, the actual= C is=20 present. The L of my variometer part in<BR>> the BIG coil= is=20 estimated to be 30 mH. Maybe it is even more and the<BR>>= overall L=20 is higher than L(coil)+L(variometer) due to the better<BR>>= magnetic=20 coupling. So maybe i have less C and more L than thought on=20 8,97.<BR>><BR>> When doubling the antenna height from 10= 0m to 200m=20 and assuming 5 pF/m<BR>> the C is doubled as well. So i tho= ught i=20 will come out at 6,34 kHz<BR>> (8,97/sqrt(2)). But this may= just a=20 rough estimate. EZNEC says the C<BR>> factor is not 2 but= 1,88 so i=20 would come out some 100 Hz above.<BR>><BR>> So the quest= ion=20 is:<BR>> What is the actual antenna C for 100m<BR>> What= is the=20 actual (maximum and average) L<BR>> What is the C factor wh= en going=20 from 100m to 200m<BR>><BR>> This are many uncertainties= and so i=20 didn't want to tap the coil at 70%<BR>> of the winding to= come back=20 to 8,97 kHz but first just to measure out<BR>> where the re= sonance=20 will be, to solve these open Questions. Of course,<BR>> ano= ther=20 important and very interesting issue is propagation in the 46k= m<BR>>=20 band! :-)<BR>><BR>> So, sorry for that coarse frequency= range.=20 Maybe the actual QRG will be<BR>> written here in the refle= ctor and=20 can be seen on my garbber2 but first<BR>> lets hope for pro= per=20 WX!<BR>><BR>> 73 and tnx,=20 Stefan/DK7FC<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Am 31.07.2010 11:= 23,=20 schrieb pws:<BR>> > Hi Stefan,<BR>> ><BR>> >= Question:=20 do you have a realistic guess of the frequency window of your<= BR>>=20 > transmission around 6.5kHz, e.g. +-100Hz?<BR>> ><BR= >> >=20 You wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >> ....<BR>> >>= on=20 *Sunday, the 1. August*, i will make a new kite experiment.<BR= >>=20 >> ...<BR>> >> i will transmit at arround *6,5= =20 kHz,<BR>> >> ...<BR>> >> Starting time is*= 8 UTC*,=20 maybe some time later<BR>> >> ...<BR>> >> TX= QTH is as=20 usual in JN49IS, 49.77647N 8.699525.<BR>> >><BR>>= >=20 Distance is 516km, heading 10deg. to Kiel.<BR>> ><BR>>= ; >=20 Just modified the software running at ~17mHz of resolution. An= tennas=20 are<BR>> > two crossed ferrite loops feeding some BC550= in=20 parallel buffered by<BR>> > NE5532. Both amplifiers are= connected=20 to a M-Audio Audiophile 192<BR>running<BR>> > at 24 kHz= on an=20 Intel Atom 330 "shoe-box" under Linux.<BR>> ><BR>> &g= t; 73 from=20 Baltic Sea,<BR>> > Peter<BR>>=20 ><BR>><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></D= IV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><= /BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CB30EC.2FC42570--