Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mh04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E26C038000085; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1RruTz-000296-L1 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:31 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1RruTy-00028x-Ov for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:30 +0000 Received: from out1.ip01ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.237]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RruTy-0005lu-2V for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:53:30 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtQHAEnJJk9cF/As/2dsb2JhbABDgk2CPpkAkEuBBoFtBQEBBQgBAQMWCikCDx0BAQMFAgEDEQQBAQohAgIUAQQaBhYIBhMKAQICAQGHbqZqkUuIZQQIAQocIgGDPVEHAgQDJwGCGIEWBIJbimiaKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,592,1320624000"; d="scan'208,217";a="378860910" Received: from host-92-23-240-44.as13285.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.23.240.44]) by out1.ip01ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 30 Jan 2012 16:47:23 +0000 Message-ID: <007501ccdf6e$d66a2960$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <007f01ccdeb1$cda0b1e0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <6269AFC61EFB4E17A5884AF57C3DD948@AGB> <4F25AB0C.30205@talktalk.net> <8CEAD5DD0F8C97A-1E08-163CB@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> <001901ccdf55$bd4b88c0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <4F26B922.708@talktalk.net> <004701ccdf66$8ce18570$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <4F26C59A.8090203@talktalk.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:47:21 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01CCDF6E.D6250A10" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:427121408:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60d84f26cdeb25a4 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01CCDF6E.D6250A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scared of neighbours es XYL now the secret is OUT !!!!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: qrss=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:30 PM Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Mal I have many other antennas squeezed in from a 40m doublet to 23cm = beams, I also have neighbours who are excellent but I need to be = reasonable about what I erect, I also have an XYL. When will you realise. How many times do you need to be told, that not = all Hams live in fields. Some of us actually enjoy doing what we can with what we have, and = then actually choose to use QRP, because it is a challenge. And we still = get to OK land on 200uW ERP. Yes I have a 10m glass fibre rod the only possible place that I could = mount it is on my neighbours office wall, I have brackets there, = recently I had my wind generator mounted there on test, half on mine = half on his property, that would make a lousy location for a 500kHz = antenna though. On 30/01/2012 15:48, mal hamilton wrote:=20 It is hard to believe that you can only get a 5 metre inv L into = your property. How about going upwards towards the sky. Try a 10 metre = telescopic fishing rod at least that is twice what you have at present, = also 15metre rods are available and should fit into your back yard. Footprint 10 sq inches=20 You cannot be serious about your antenna limitations g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: qrss=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 3:37 PM Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Hey Mal I hope you are sitting down. I must tell you, I had a Morse QSO = c.12WPM on 500kHz yesterday morning with G3XIZ and very enjoyable it was = too. My QRP Rig is my own design home built with a home made Morse Key, = the Antenna, 5m inverted L is as big as I can accommodate, it took a lot = of engineering to get the efficiency on 500kHz that it has. Question, at what point when I start to key that TX from a PIC, = with my own programming, conceived by me, with a Data mode do I become a = worthless Back Box Appliance Operator for whom there is no room on = 500kHz. Eddie =20 On 30/01/2012 13:47, mal hamilton wrote:=20 Eddie Om=20 There is your answer from a MAN that knows g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 11:59 AM Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera V Eddie, my guess is that in the "Opera vs QRSS" challenge, Mal's odds = wouldn't be bad at all: Graham stated that Opera-8 should decode above SNR -32 dB in = 2.5 kHz (average). Referenced to 1 Hz, this is +2 dBHz average, or about = + 5 dBHz for the CW carrier. QRSS-10 could transmit a callsign approximately in the same = amout of time. It is received eg. in Argo at 0.084 Hz FFT bandwidth, = equivalent to 0.13 Hz or -9 dBHz noise bandwidth. Thus the marginal = Opera signal would be a very comfortable 14 dB SNR in QRSS.=20 We typically give "O" reports on QRSS signals above 10 dB SNR. = This would mean that QRSS could be twice as fast as Opera... Some may prefer the digital decoder from the visual one = because "100% all-or-nothing". In my opinion this is not a benefit, as = there is no way to detect a signal below the threshold, and judge how = much was missing or what type of QRM was present. Of course, with a = digital mode yu don't have to bother investigating spectrograms - well, = borrowing a term once coined by G3KEV, then that's the ultimate "lazy = man's CW" ;-) Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Graham An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Fr, 6 Jan 2012 9:50 pm Betreff: Re: LF: Opera questions ... OP31 expected round -38 dB s/n (ave) OP8 ~ -32 dB =20 G..=20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: qrss An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 29 Jan 2012 9:25 pm Betreff: Re: LF: 500 opera V So Mal Can you see or hear my 12WPM Morse ident between my OPERA = signals? I doubt it. I could put QRS3 between, that would be a good = test. Say a cryptic message for decipher, one transmission and that is = it, if Opera decodes and the QRS remains unread OPERA wins. Eddie On 29/01/2012 19:53, Graham wrote:=20 R Mal Those signals where about 10 db over the limit , so = will show , OP16 , is about 6 dB lower again. but a decode is a = decode.. good start. =20 14:44 500 G3ZJO de G3KEV Op4 142 miles -22 dB in SCARBOROUGH 136 is being most used at the moment RA9CUA is = monitoring =20 Show all seen by RA9CUA Last report: RN3AGC G..=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:14 PM To: rsgb=20 Subject: LF: 500 opera V MF On 500 Khz so far signals decoded in Opera mode have been = visible on the waterfall therefore had the mode been QRSS the result = would have probably been better and quicker in QRS 3 - 10 The mode is however interesting and needs little operator = intervention. de mal/g3kev ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01CCDF6E.D6250A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Scared of neighbours es XYL now the secret is = OUT=20 !!!!!
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 qrss
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 = 4:30=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera = V

Mal

I have many other antennas squeezed in from = a 40m=20 doublet to 23cm beams, I also have neighbours who are excellent but I = need to=20 be reasonable about what I erect, I also have an XYL.

When will = you=20 realise. How many times do you need to be told, that not all Hams live = in=20 fields.
Some of us actually enjoy doing what we can with what we = have, and=20 then actually choose to use QRP, because it is a challenge. And we = still get=20 to OK land on 200uW ERP.

Yes I have a 10m glass fibre rod the = only=20 possible place that I could mount it is on my neighbours office wall, = I have=20 brackets there, recently I had my wind generator mounted there on = test, half=20 on mine half on his property, that would make a lousy location for a = 500kHz=20 antenna though.


On 30/01/2012 15:48, mal hamilton wrote:=20
It is hard to believe that you can only get = a 5 metre=20 inv L into your property. How about going upwards towards the sky. = Try a 10=20 metre telescopic fishing rod at least that is twice what you have at = present, also 15metre rods are available and should fit into your = back=20 yard.
Footprint 10 sq inches
You cannot be serious about your antenna=20 limitations
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 qrss
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Monday, January 30, = 2012 3:37=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: 500 opera = V

Hey Mal

I hope you are sitting down. I must = tell=20 you, I had a Morse QSO c.12WPM on 500kHz yesterday morning with = G3XIZ and=20 very enjoyable it was too.

My QRP Rig is my own design home = built=20 with a home made Morse Key, the Antenna, 5m inverted L is as big = as I can=20 accommodate, it took a lot of engineering to get the efficiency on = 500kHz=20 that it has.

Question, at what point when I start to key = that TX=20 from a PIC, with my own programming, conceived by me, with a Data = mode do=20 I become a worthless Back Box Appliance Operator for whom there is = no room=20 on 500kHz.

Eddie

 
On 30/01/2012 13:47, mal = hamilton=20 wrote:=20
Eddie Om
There is your answer from a MAN that=20 knows
g3kev
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Markus Vester
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =
Sent: Monday, January = 30, 2012=20 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: LF: 500 = opera=20 V

Eddie,
 
my guess is that in the "Opera vs QRSS" challenge, = Mal's=20 odds wouldn't be bad at all:
 
Graham stated that Opera-8 should decode above=20 SNR -32 dB in 2.5 kHz (average). Referenced to = 1 Hz,=20 this is +2 dBHz average, or about + 5 dBHz for the CW=20 carrier.
 
QRSS-10 could transmit a callsign approximately = in the=20 same amout of time. It is received eg. in Argo at 0.084 Hz FFT = bandwidth, equivalent to 0.13 Hz or -9 dBHz = noise=20 bandwidth. Thus the marginal Opera signal would be a very = comfortable 14 dB SNR in QRSS. 
 
We typically give "O" reports on QRSS signals above = 10 dB=20 SNR. This would mean that QRSS could be twice as fast as=20 Opera...
 
Some may prefer the digital decoder from the visual one=20 because "100% all-or-nothing". In my opinion this is not = a=20 benefit, as there is no way to detect a signal below = the=20 threshold, and judge how much was missing or what type of = QRM was=20 present. Of course, with a digital mode yu don't have to=20 bother investigating spectrograms - well, borrowing = a=20 term once coined by G3KEV, then that's the ultimate "lazy = man's=20 CW" ;-)
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: = Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
An:=20 rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Vers= chickt:=20 Fr, 6 Jan 2012 9:50 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: Opera = questions
...
OP31 expected  round  -38 dB  s/n =20 (ave)     OP8   ~  -32 = dB =20
 
G..


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20 Mitteilung-----
Von: qrss <qrss@talktalk.net>
An:=20 rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Vers= chickt:=20 So, 29 Jan 2012 9:25 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: 500 opera = V

So = Mal

Can you see or hear my 12WPM Morse ident between my = OPERA=20 signals? I doubt it. I could put QRS3 between, that would be a = good=20 test. Say a cryptic message for decipher, one transmission and = that is=20 it, if Opera decodes and the QRS remains unread OPERA=20 wins.

Eddie

On 29/01/2012 19:53, Graham wrote:=20
R Mal
Those  signals where  = about  10 db=20 over the  limit ,  so  will  show , OP16 = , =20 is about 6  dB lower  again. but  a = decode  is a=20 decode.. good  start.  
14:44 500 G3ZJO de G3KEV Op4 142 miles -22 dB in=20 SCARBOROUGH
136  is  being  = most =20 used  at the  moment   RA9CUA  = is =20 monitoring 
Show all seen by RA9CUA
Last = report:=20 RN3AGC
G..

From: mal=20 hamilton
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:14 PM
To: rsgb
Subject: LF: 500 opera V

MF
On 500 Khz so far signals decoded in = Opera=20 mode have been visible on the waterfall therefore had the = mode been=20 QRSS the result would have probably been better and quicker = in QRS 3=20 - 10
The mode is however interesting and = needs=20 little operator intervention.
de mal/g3kev
 


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