Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w8A5IqAi023752 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 07:18:55 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1fzEPC-0007ta-3x for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 06:06:34 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1fzEP4-0007tR-Aj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 06:06:26 +0100 Received: from resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:36]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1fzEP1-0007q9-JE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 06:06:25 +0100 Received: from resomta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.97]) by resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id zEOwffLSPlHCvzEOwfxCKW; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 05:06:18 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1536555978; bh=aFY1TK9x3CyA46l9LwsAKlldpvAByNza3lTo33GVgs0=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=WkWSslGF667VtnZ6bfjlePEjGaYRYbK9IiQGT6oawT8C+9r6KPldr1duT4P11yPOA JHppLgzrjtFI/Wwk0fyB5BEYLS6R0brPKdMaX3aYdd63Bz8opEN/HYA35Fn8Q3c28N R5XceVMh/Bt8lHV3nG2OkLeyTEqVlyERkRmMgSa/2eh0wnFPMIER17K/j4fNVQ+Crs YhK4jTbtVEwo1+0fMeh15T8hUI5Ys04HHpbbR7ynUX9rUIxVsnZeDQFQ+jrkiy4DVF jnzuMmoQ2l5R6IHirOFqAI0hh25K7W8CBoxQeLi+1fMHr0kboE/t+Fbn5WJjzEOO/2 i+zm/Ohq+wBCg== Received: from Owner ([IPv6:2601:140:8500:7f9f:a593:49:2f36:f121]) by resomta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id zEOtfFKp1DKDWzEOuf1n0H; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 05:06:17 +0000 From: To: References: <5B94344B.3030503@posteo.de> <165bb2c1d17-1ebb-76dc@webjasstg-vaa41.srv.aolmail.net> In-Reply-To: <165bb2c1d17-1ebb-76dc@webjasstg-vaa41.srv.aolmail.net> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 01:06:06 -0400 Message-ID: <005c01d448c3$ffd50480$ff7f0d80$@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJjSrBnmXhBveA/7wKh6AenyqXHM6PK2wVg Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBrJ2j0p49lDaqaY0QqX7+VdANx1Ziy8LhxWk5WK+LJllXJcD1O6lKAC1eC5MG3vzFZ3hvm48LwI4jE4lJjCZt1GSpyfZbEgYDvb7jPfxWKHR1BO8TyX 8o+b4ezAKewr0U8BUX1ipiEbD1cVnLmlXdsmiC7gXgcstooqXpdejsJrUNE4UCten/xj8vIDBaJ78jhZyaiKGAvXjG1auuHN5D/Pe0k0557axRmd/HZUkWz8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: Hello Markus and Stefan, Markus mentioned: “high angle radiation …possibly leading to deeper fading at intermediate ranges” [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:36 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hvanesce[at]comcast.net) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 90338e40e9ba9cca82d2bbd7ba5c2c02 Subject: RE: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this weekend Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01D448A2.78C49D00" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01D448A2.78C49D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Markus and Stefan, =20 Markus mentioned: =E2=80=9Chigh angle radiation =E2=80=A6possibly leading to deeper fading = at intermediate ranges=E2=80=9D =20 I would guess the same. =20 I checked the following to see if the 900m/137kHz configuration (> 1/4 = wavelength freespace, >> 1/4 wavelength in earth), or some particular = earth conductivity, or very-close-proximity to ground, or perhaps some = hemispherical spreading in earth ground currents might reliably mitigate = high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate ranges. a) https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2005RS003298 b) https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/64D/jresv64Dn1p27_A1b.pdf c) =E2=80=9CCharacteristics of a Power Line Used as a VLF = Antenna=E2=80=9D (Dazey, Radio Science 1982) =20 Items (a, b and c) augmented a perspective that experiments are more = reliable than theory in this realm. I couldn=E2=80=99t find any basis in theory for ruling out = high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate ranges, even with = 900m/137kHz, and earth-loop and dipole-on-earth configurations, = especially given some possibility of Eh+Ev nulls. =20 Perhaps more valuable than much of the theory is that the transmitter = provided good far-field signals on first attempts at 1570 Hz, 1970 Hz, = 2470 Hz, 2970 Hz and 137 kHz. That=E2=80=99s really something to think = about. =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 5:53 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend =20 Hi Stefan, indeed your signal has been very consistent around 5 uV/m and -8 to -10 = dB in the afternoon. At 230 km range, this would indicate a radiated = power around 40 mW (EMRP), or 0.4% antenna efficiency. Around nightfall, = heavy QSB set in, with occaional minima where the signal fell below the = decode threshold but was still ghastly visible in the waterfall with = heavy RDF colour aberrations. I suspect that the diplole emits more high = angle radiation than a vertical, possibly leading to deeper fading at = intermediate ranges.=20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: DK7FC An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Sa, 8. Sept 2018 22:45 Betreff: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend Thanks to the many stations beeing RX-active on LF WSPR tonite. It is very strange, the SNR reported by the stations below 500 km=20 distance was very good in daytime but now at night there are not more=20 stations receiving me, except 2 reports by 2E0ILY. Also the software just reports JN39 instead of JN39WI. Maybe some reports are not uploaded or shown on the database, because of = conflicting locators for the same callsign? I can hardly imagine that nothing comes through at night. Very odd. Does someone have an explanation what can cause these good results=20 during the day and such bad results at night? 73, Stefan PS: My QRG is 137.425 kHz and starts each xx:x0 (each 10 minutes). Maybe = someone can see somethning on the waterfall display? ... ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01D448A2.78C49D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

H= ello Markus and Stefan,

 

M= arkus mentioned:

=E2= =80=9Chigh angle radiation =E2=80=A6possibly leading to deeper = fading at intermediate ranges=E2=80=9D

<= o:p> 

I= would guess the same.

<= o:p> 

I= checked the following to see if the 900m/137kHz configuration (> 1/4 = wavelength freespace, >> 1/4 wavelength in earth), or some = particular earth conductivity, or very-close-proximity to ground, or = perhaps some hemispherical spreading in earth ground currents might = reliably mitigate high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate = ranges.

a= ) = https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2005RS003298

b) <= a = href=3D"https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/64D/jresv64Dn1p27_A1b.pdf"= >https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/64D/jresv64Dn1p27_A1b.pdf

c= ) =E2=80=9CCharacteristics of a Power Line Used as a VLF = Antenna=E2=80=9D (Dazey, Radio Science 1982)

<= o:p> 

I= tems (a, b and c) augmented a perspective that experiments are more = reliable than theory in this realm.

I= couldn=E2=80=99t find any basis in theory for ruling out = high-radiation-angle fading at intermediate ranges, even with = 900m/137kHz, and earth-loop and dipole-on-earth configurations, = especially given some possibility of Eh+Ev = nulls.

<= o:p> 

P= erhaps more valuable than much of the theory is that the transmitter = provided good far-field signals on first attempts at 1570 Hz, 1970 Hz, = 2470 Hz, 2970 Hz and 137 kHz. That=E2=80=99s really something to think = about.

<= o:p> 

7= 3,

<= o:p> 

J= im AA5BW =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

 

 

 

From:= = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus = Vester
Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 5:53 PM
To: = rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137 kHz = WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this weekend

 

H= i Stefan,

indeed your signal has been very consistent around = 5 uV/m and -8 to -10 dB in the afternoon. At 230 km range, this would = indicate a radiated power around 40 mW (EMRP), or 0.4% antenna = efficiency. Around nightfall, heavy QSB set in, with occaional minima = where the signal fell below the decode threshold but was still = ghastly visible in the waterfall with heavy RDF colour = aberrations. I suspect that the diplole emits more high angle = radiation than a vertical, possibly leading to deeper = fading at intermediate ranges. 

Best 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)

-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: DK7FC = <selberdenken@posteo.de>
= An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= >
Verschickt: Sa, 8. Sept 2018 22:45
Betreff: Re: LF: Re: = 137 kHz WSPR-2 on a 900m long ground loop, this = weekend

T= hanks to the many stations beeing RX-active on LF WSPR tonite.

It = is very strange, the SNR reported by the stations below 500 km =
distance was very good in daytime but now at night there are not = more
stations receiving me, except 2 reports by 2E0ILY.
Also the = software just reports JN39 instead of JN39WI.
Maybe some reports are = not uploaded or shown on the database, because of
conflicting = locators for the same callsign?
I can hardly imagine that nothing = comes through at night. Very odd.
Does someone have an explanation = what can cause these good results
during the day and such bad = results at night?

73, Stefan

PS: My QRG is 137.425 kHz and = starts each xx:x0 (each 10 minutes). Maybe
someone can see = somethning on the waterfall = display?
...

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