Delivered-To: daveyxm@virginmedia.com Received: by 10.50.96.138 with SMTP id ds10csp37451igb; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:34:47 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.120.164 with SMTP id ld4mr6976524wjb.47.1387042486417; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:34:46 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com. [195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id z20si1214668wiu.36.2013.12.14.09.34.45 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Vrqz8-0002bn-Ve for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:18:30 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Vrqz7-0002bc-Ty for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:18:29 +0000 Received: from smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net ([212.54.42.164]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Vrqz5-0000M5-6W for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:18:28 +0000 Received: from [212.54.42.136] (helo=smtp5.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vrqz4-0000IQ-71 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:18:26 +0100 Received: from 53530587.cm-6-4a.dynamic.ziggo.nl ([83.83.5.135] helo=pa3fnyb8313412) by smtp5.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vrqz3-00085m-DF for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:18:26 +0100 Message-ID: <004601cef8df$bbe6bea0$6402a8c0@pa3fnyb8313412> From: "Victor" To: References: <6514E2CA89B64F1BB9851B892A35C91A@White> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:18:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Ziggo-spambar: ---- X-Ziggo-spamscore: -4.3 X-Ziggo-spamreport: ALL_TRUSTED=-1,BAYES_00=-1.9,DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.523,DYN_RDNS_SHORT_HELO_HTML=0.001,FSL_HELO_NON_FQDN_1=0.001,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,PROLO_TRUST_MX=-2.1,PROLO_TRUST_RDNS=-3,RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982,RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001,TW_OV=0.077,TW_VB=0.077 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: 300 Hz down is no problem and it looks clean.I only have to realign the preselector! 73 Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; Bob Raide Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:03 PM Subject: Re: LF: All 73 Banders... [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [212.54.42.164 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 48f9f369e416634ea68e1d2c7f17cd5d Subject: Re: LF: All 73 Banders... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01CEF8E8.1D6D3340" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2162 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CEF8E8.1D6D3340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 300 Hz down is no problem and it looks clean.I only have to realign the = preselector! 73 Victor ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; Bob Raide=20 Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:03 PM Subject: Re: LF: All 73 Banders... Hmmm - capturing Bob's WSPR is a bit like crossing a four lane highway = by foot: Once you've managed to find a gap between the DCF trails, = you'll be hit by a Loran line on the next track... Glad to see that Joe DF2JP managed to get some decodes, probably for = the first time. His capture shows significant DCF77 "junk", the effect = of which we have apparently reduced successfully.=20 Around midnight there were also some meager traces here, but simply = not enough SNR to decode. I have marked the four tones with 0.1831 Hz = spacing with green arrow heads on = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kHz_131214_0200_arrow= heads.png Unfortunately 74612 Hz would not be good here. It's however strange that Hartmut and Victor didn't get any decodes, = even though the signal seemed to be well visible for both. What looks = like noise on Victor's capture must really be the WSPR-15 spectrum:=20 = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/pa3fny_74603_131214_0700_arro= wheads.jpg But both statiopns have a relatively strong Loran line, and Hartmut's = directional antenna is pointing towards Sylt. However the nearby line = frequency 74603.280 Hz should have been well outside the occupied = spectrum of Bob's WSPR signal (74603.51 to 604.24), so it's not ovbvious = why it should have prevented decodes. I'm speculating that the WSPR = software finds the strong line, tries to sync to it, and then somehow = excludes nearby real signals from further decode attempts. To prove the = point and see how much spacing is needed, we could experiment with = letting WSPR decode local audio signals in the presence of injected = carriers. But systematic trials with WSPR tend to be time-consuming, = even if such tests were accelerated by scaling to WSPR-2. As Bob says, the best solution would be to move further out, avoiding = the DCF77 sideband lobes alltogether: = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74kHz_spectrum_investigation_= df6nm_131214.png shows different parts of the spectrum in detail. My idea would be to = move down by 300 Hz, ie 72.7 kHz dial and 74.300 to 74.325 kHz RF for = WSPR-15. In that range, DCF noise is so weak that we would only neeed to = avoid the more widely spaced Loran lines. I have listed and sorted the = relevant GRI harmonics at = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_frequencies_74300-74= 325Hz.png = http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_frequencies_74300-74= 325Hz.txt but note that emitted levels are variable, and not every line will = really be strong enough to cause interference. Thus my suggestion would be to go to 72.7 kHz dial, and Bob sending on = either 74304 or 74321 Hz. Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:41 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; Bob Raide=20 Subject: LF: All 73 Banders... I am authorized 68-76 kHz. There must be clear freqs somewhere in = that spectrum? Let me know what most would like to try in UK/Europe-Bob = WG2XRS/4 NY [WG4XRS for WSPR modes] Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 2014.0.4259 / Virusdatabase: 3658/6919 - datum van uitgifte: = 12/13/13 ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CEF8E8.1D6D3340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
300 Hz down is no problem and it looks = clean.I only=20 have to realign the preselector!
 
 
73
Victor
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Saturday, December 14, = 2013 4:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: All 73 = Banders...

Hmmm - capturing Bob's WSPR is a bit = like=20 crossing a four lane highway by foot: Once you've managed to find a = gap=20 between the DCF trails, you'll be hit by a Loran line on the next=20 track...
 
Glad to see that Joe DF2JP managed to = get some=20 decodes, probably for the first time. His capture shows significant = DCF77=20 "junk", the effect of which we have apparently reduced successfully.=20
 
Around midnight there were also some = meager=20 traces here, but simply not enough SNR to decode. I have marked the = four tones=20 with 0.1831 Hz spacing with green arrow heads on
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/df6nm_74kH= z_131214_0200_arrowheads.png
Unfortunately=20 74612 Hz would not be good here.
 
It's however strange that Hartmut and = Victor=20 didn't get any decodes, even though the signal seemed to be well = visible for=20 both. What looks like noise on Victor's capture must really be the = WSPR-15=20 spectrum:
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/pa3fny_74= 603_131214_0700_arrowheads.jpg

But both statiopns have a = relatively strong=20 Loran line, and Hartmut's directional antenna is pointing towards = Sylt.=20 However the nearby line frequency 74603.280 Hz should have been well = outside=20 the occupied spectrum of Bob's WSPR signal (74603.51 to 604.24), so = it's not=20 ovbvious why it should have prevented decodes. I'm speculating that = the WSPR=20 software finds the strong line, tries to sync to it, and then somehow = excludes=20 nearby real signals from further decode attempts. To prove the point = and see=20 how much spacing is needed, we could experiment with letting WSPR = decode local=20 audio signals in the presence of injected carriers. But systematic = trials with=20 WSPR tend to be time-consuming, even if such tests were accelerated by = scaling=20 to WSPR-2.
 
As Bob says, the best solution would = be to move=20 further out, avoiding the DCF77 sideband lobes = alltogether:
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/74k= Hz_spectrum_investigation_df6nm_131214.png
shows=20 different parts of the spectrum in detail. My idea would be to move = down by=20 300 Hz, ie 72.7 kHz dial and 74.300 to 74.325 kHz RF for WSPR-15. In = that=20 range, DCF noise is so weak that we would only neeed to avoid the more = widely=20 spaced Loran lines. I have listed and sorted the relevant GRI = harmonics=20 at
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_f= requencies_74300-74325Hz.png
 http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26404526/Eu_Loran_f= requencies_74300-74325Hz.txt
but=20 note that emitted levels are variable, and not every line will really = be=20 strong enough to cause interference.
 
Thus my suggestion would be to go to = 72.7=20 kHz dial, and Bob sending on either 74304 or = 74321 Hz.
 
Best 73,
Markus = (DF6NM)
 
 

From: Bob Raide
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:41 AM
Subject: LF: All 73 Banders...

I am authorized 68-76 kHz.  There must be clear = freqs=20 somewhere in that spectrum?  Let me know what most would like to = try in=20 UK/Europe-Bob WG2XRS/4 NY [WG4XRS for WSPR modes]
 

Geen virus = gevonden in dit=20 bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
Versie: 2014.0.4259 /=20 Virusdatabase: 3658/6919 - datum van uitgifte:=20 12/13/13

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