Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id DFEA63800008B; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1T5zfk-0008NA-MC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:48:08 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1T5zfj-0008N1-W4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:48:07 +0100 Received: from out1.ip03ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.239]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1T5zfh-0002Sa-8H for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:48:06 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuAKAEh5O1BcHnxB/2dsb2JhbABFpCSVTwKBAIEIghsFAQEFCAEBA0kCLAEBAwUCAQMRBAEBCiUUAQQaBhYIBhMKAQICAQGHbQMQB7BEC4lQBgGLAYIFQ4RJA4gahUKJDY8BgmM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.80,320,1344207600"; d="scan'208,217";a="396907768" Received: from host-92-30-124-65.as13285.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.30.124.65]) by out1.ip03ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 27 Aug 2012 14:48:03 +0100 Message-ID: <004101cd845a$92615db0$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <06DDBDA2FE814440A956B5C33365FB75@AGB> <503B5C7A.8020106@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <003501cd8452$4ce82780$0501a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <37060B46D79F4AC69EEDBDA79B6B00CC@AGB> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:47:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. 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Content preview: Yes Graham fair logic, but with data modes it is ALL or NOTHING whereas with a one state mode like QRSS there are alwas some characters visible and the message just needs a bit of infill for an ID In the radio amateur context and especially on LF/mf we probably already know the callsign and the gist of the info being sent. mal/g3kev [...] Content analysis details: (4.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [62.24.128.239 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.0 FSL_XM_419 Old OE version in X-Mailer only seen in 419 spam -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 1.9 FSL_UA FSL_UA 2.1 AXB_XMAILER_MIMEOLE_OL_024C2 AXB_XMAILER_MIMEOLE_OL_024C2 X-Scan-Signature: 63130203bdd9ddf2cbf93b2de3d1651e Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01CD845A.922A9640" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4059503b7acc774c X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CD845A.922A9640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes Graham fair logic, but with data modes it is ALL or NOTHING whereas = with a one state mode like QRSS there are alwas some characters visible = and the message just needs a bit of infill for an ID In the radio amateur context and especially on LF/mf we probably already = know the callsign and the gist of the info being sent. mal/g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Interesting , is Op visible at -40 dB ? ,=20 But yes , it was possible to re hash a message if the ltrs/figs = shift had been missed , but the signal levels where many dB's = higher and once the change to multi tone was implemented , picalo = etc , then error rates dropped and link up-times extended =20 You are correct though , OP is a data mode , which by = definition is two state and therefore will have a pass/fail = point , the beacon is reporting 'path quality' by s/n at the Rx = ,=20 This applies to any beacon / data system , wspr has a decode = fail point , qrss has a decode fail point sure you can join = the dots up , but if you need to receive the data , then qrss = offers no advantage Q # =3D ? Q 5 =3D good copy , if you don't = see the 5 then what ? guess ?=20 G.. From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:48 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: OP missed decodes Stefan es Co It is often the case when Data modes cannot be decoded they are = visible on the waterfall display. It is also a fact that RTTY can easily = be visually read on a waterfall display when it does not decode/print = because of qrn hits or qsb.=20 In the past RTTY fsk marks/spaces were read from undulator tape by a = competent operator who knew the Murray code. This method produced better = results than direct demodulation/printing The preferred method on LF/MF surely is QRSS, DFCW for reliability in = handling very weak signals then CW for the stronger signals and local = working. de mal/g3kev =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: LF: OP missed decodes G..,=20 Am 27.08.2012 13:18, schrieb Graham:=20 DK7FC UZ2HZ 2200m OPERA 1789 kms 23:05:38=20 =20 =20 =20 Did the program show that decode on your PC? On my PC the decode did = not appear! It would be a pity if decodes would be lost. I tried to = reach UZ2HZ but thought i wasn't successful. Maybe it was the same with = SM2DJK?=20 Maybe further stations got successful TA decodes but no one knows? = Another disadvantage compared to QRSS/DFCW.. 73, Stefan/DK7FC ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CD845A.922A9640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes Graham fair logic, but with data modes it is = ALL or=20 NOTHING whereas with a one state mode like QRSS there are alwas = some=20 characters visible and the message just needs a bit of infill for an=20 ID
In the radio amateur context and especially on = LF/mf we=20 probably already know the callsign and the gist of the info being=20 sent.
mal/g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 = 1:08=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: OP missed=20 decodes

Interesting  , is   Op  visible    = at =20 -40 dB ? ,
 
But  yes  , it was possible to  re hash a = message  if=20 the  ltrs/figs   shift had  been  = missed  , but=20 the  signal levels  where  many dB's   higher = and  once  the  change to  multi  tone =20 was  implemented , picalo   etc  ,=20 then  error  rates  dropped  and  = link =20 up-times  extended 
 
You are  correct though  , OP  is a  = data =20 mode  , which by  definition  is  two  = state =20 and therefore  will  have a  pass/fail  point , = the =20 beacon  is  reporting  'path  quality'   = by s/n=20 at the  Rx  ,
 
This applies to  any  beacon / data  system  = ,=20 wspr  has a  decode  fail  point  , = qrss =20 has  a  decode  fail  = point    sure=20 you can  join the  dots  up , but  if = you =20 need  to receive the  data , then  qrss  = offers =20 no  advantage   Q #  =3D ?   Q 5 =3D = good  copy=20 , if  you don't  see  the  5  then  what = ? guess=20 ?
 
G..

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:48 PM
Subject: LF: Re: OP missed decodes

Stefan es Co
It is often the case when Data modes cannot be = decoded=20 they are visible on the waterfall display. It is also a fact that RTTY = can=20 easily be visually read on a waterfall display when it does not = decode/print=20 because of qrn hits or qsb.
In the past RTTY fsk marks/spaces were = read from=20 undulator tape by a competent operator who knew the Murray code. = This=20 method produced better results than direct = demodulation/printing
The preferred method on LF/MF surely is = QRSS,=20 DFCW for reliability in handling very weak signals then CW for = the=20 stronger signals and local working.
de mal/g3kev
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stefan = Sch=E4fer=20
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 = 11:39=20 AM
Subject: LF: OP missed = decodes

G..,

Am 27.08.2012 13:18, schrieb Graham:=20
 
DK7FC UZ2HZ 2200m OPERA 1789 kms 23:05:38


Did = the=20 program show that decode on your PC? On my PC the decode did not = appear! It=20 would be a pity if decodes would be lost. I tried to reach UZ2HZ but = thought=20 i wasn't successful. Maybe it was the same with SM2DJK?
Maybe = further=20 stations got successful TA decodes but no one knows? Another = disadvantage=20 compared to QRSS/DFCW..

73,=20 Stefan/DK7FC
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