Return-Path: Received: from mtain-me02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-me02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.138]) by air-mf07.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMF073-8bf34be2fff012d; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:44:16 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-me02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 9F8313800020A; Thu, 6 May 2010 13:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OA56P-0004Bh-Bp for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 18:43:13 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OA56O-0004BY-PI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 18:43:12 +0100 Received: from out1.ip01ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.237]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OA56L-0008QY-Qr for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 18:43:12 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag4OAPqb4ksCYgRk/2dsb2JhbACBP5V2hjsDcb19hRME X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,342,1270422000"; d="scan'208,217";a="310353598" Received: from unknown (HELO your91hoehfy9g) ([2.98.4.100]) by out1.ip01ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 06 May 2010 18:43:02 +0100 Message-ID: <003701caed43$95e00a00$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: ,<6C0A9ACBA77A40D6A17362F114DC0A7D@AGB> Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:43:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=0.234,SUBJECT_ENCODED_TWICE=1.543 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_LF:_500_Permit_emission=92s_bandwidth=3F__EU_and_Glo?= =?Windows-1252?Q?bal_=3F=3F?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01CAED4B.F768C890" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608a4be2ffeb1562 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01CAED4B.F768C890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The majority of CW operators on LF/FMF will not exceed 100 hz bandwidt= h. 99.9% are sending at speeds of about 10wpm or less. 100 hz is about right on LF/MF where the total bandwidth of the permit= ted allocation is about 3 khz also, as far as data modes are concerned all that is happening on LF/M= F is bodging data modes meant for vhf/uhf applications and making a me= ss, ie the Appliance Operator approach g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rik Strobbe=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: RE: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? Graham, the document that gives us access to 500kHz says 100Hz bandwidth, bu= t does not say how many dB's the signal has to be attenuated at these= limits. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk] Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010 13:30 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global= ?? Ok Many thanks' for the reply's From that .... next is :- From the data, I assume that 100 Hz is the common limiting fact= or for a narrow band data transmission that could be used by all= who 'wanted' to use it ?..(noted on the cw keying speed ~ BW) So if a value of 100 Hz is specified, what is the 'presumed' = roll-off of the power in the said bands ?, assuming that the origin= al concept was based on CW operation , which by definition 'has to'= generate sidebands , there must be an assumed tolerance ? Q would the deployment of a system that could defined as 125= hz bandwidth ie 100 Hz with +/- 12.5 Hz overspill , cause a te= chnical breach of the regulations or be viewed as occupying th= e 'allocated' bandwidth for a telegraphy transmission ? ,=20 Taking that spectral measurements in the 10 Hz region are perha= ps starting to test even the best equipment, the area is perhaps= a little empiric ? I use the word telegraphy, purposely to view/observe the situatio= n interims of the licence conditions and not on the basis of 'mod= e' which like Liverpool and Everton have there own sub cultures bu= t are still football teams .. Thanks =20 Graham G0NBD From: Graham=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? Can any one indicated what is the permitted =91telegraphy=92 ban= dwidth of the various =91new=92 500KHz licences or special permit= s issued round the EU and now the rest of the Globe ?=20 I have the impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 tr= ansmission bandwidth, in some cases, eg , Belgium at 100 Hz . Others= appear to be some what wider or not defined ?.=20 Norway is CW only ? what is the Dutch allocation ? Southern Irel= and ? ... etc=20 Are Beacons defined by mode or bandwidth ? Tnx =96 Graham G0NBD (I use the word =91telegraphy=92 as defined by the ITU R V.662-3= , please no reference to key clicks ! ) ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01CAED4B.F768C890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The majority of CW operators on LF/FM= F will not=20 exceed 100 hz bandwidth. 99.9% are sending at speeds of about 10wpm or= =20 less.
100 hz is about right on LF/MF where= the total=20 bandwidth of the permitted allocation is about 3 khz
also, as far as data modes are concer= ned all that=20 is happening on LF/MF is bodging data modes meant for vhf/uhf applicat= ions and=20 making a mess, ie the Appliance Operator approach
 
 
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rik Strobbe
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010= 1:19=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: 500 Permit= emission=92s=20 bandwidth? EU and Global ??

Graham,
 
the document that gives us access= to 500kHz says=20 100Hz bandwidth, but does not say how many dB's the signal has to be= =20 attenuated at these limits.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T<= /DIV>
&= nbsp;
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org=20 [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham=20 [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010= =20 13:30
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp:=20 Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ??

Ok Many  thanks'  for the=  =20 reply's
 
From that .... next is :-
 
From the  data, I assume= that =20 100  Hz is the  common  limiting factor for a = =20 narrow  band  data transmission  that  could be= used by=20 all  who 'wanted'  to  use it  ?..(noted on the&= nbsp; cw=20 keying  speed  ~ BW)
 
So if a  value of  100 Hz= is =20 specified, what  is the  'presumed'  roll-off of the= power in=20 the said bands ?, assuming that  the  original = concept=20 was based on CW operation , which by  definition 'has to' gener= ate=20 sidebands , there must be an assumed  tolerance ?
 
Q  would the deployment = of a =20 system that  could   defined as   125 hz bandwid= th =20 ie 100 Hz with   +/-  12.5 Hz  overspill , cause=  =20 a  technical  breach  of the  regulations = or =20 be  viewed as  occupying  the  'allocated' bandw= idth =20 for a  telegraphy transmission ? ,
 
Taking that  spectral measurem= ents in=20 the  10  Hz  region are  perhaps  starting= =20 to  test  even the  best equipment, the  ar= ea =20 is perhaps a  little  empiric ?
 
I use the  word  telegrap= hy, purposely=20 to view/observe the  situation interims of the  licence&nb= sp;=20 conditions and not on the  basis  of  'mode' whi= ch=20 like  Liverpool  and Everton have there  own sub cult= ures=20  but are still  football  teams ..
 
Thanks 
 
Graham
G0NBD
 
 
 
 

From: Graham
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and= Global=20 ??

500 Permit=20 emission=92s bandwidth?

 

Can any one=20 indicated  what is the  permitte= d=20  =91telegraphy=92  bandwidth =20 of the various =91new=92 500KHz  licences =20 or  special  permits issu= ed round=20 the  EU and now the  rest of=20 the  Globe ?

 

I have the=20 impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 transmission= bandwidth, in=20 some cases, eg , Belgium at=20 100 Hz .  Others appear to be some what wider or= not defined=20 ?.

 

Norway  is CW only  ? what= is the =20 Dutch  allocation ? Southern Ireland ? ... etc

 

Are  Beacons defined by  mod= e=20 or  bandwidth  ?

 

Tnx =96=20 Graham

G0NBD

 

(I use=20 the  word  =91telegraphy=92 as= defined by=20 the  ITU R V.662-3 ,  please=20 no  reference to key clicks !=20 )





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