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From: "Scott Tilley" <sthed475@telus.net>
To: lowfer@lwca.org,  rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:17:13 -0800
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Subject: LF: Fw: Hydro Quebec and 2200m...
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Below is an exchange between James Dean, Radio Amateur's of Canada, Industry
Canada liason and myself regarding concerns raised by Hydro Quebec to
amateur operation on 2200m.

I feel this may be of interest to anyone in any region not presently
authorized to allow amateur operation on 2200m.

73 Scott

> Hello Scott:
>
> Thank you very much for your very generous offer of expertise and
> equipment to conduct an experiment on the possible susceptibility of
> the Hydro Quebec LF plc power grid monitoring and control network to
> amateur transmissions in the 135.7 to 137.8 kHz band.
>
> Ken, VE3PU, gave you a very good summary of the problem, but to set
> the scene, perhaps I could amplify his remarks with the information I
> sent to my contacts in Montreal. After that, I will discuss a possible way
> ahead, and I do have some specific info requests for you, and the
> other addressees, if they would like to voice their ideas.
>
> Here is what I said:
>
> "The situation is the following.
>
> Background:
>
> In preparation for WRC-2003, Canada tried to get on the agenda a
> request for a world-wide secondary allocation to the Amateur Service
> at 135.7 - 137.8 kHz (a Canadian initiative by decison of Industry
> Canada). However, as the item had not been put on the agenda for
> WRC-2003, the conference refused to add it as it might constitute a
> precedent for adding agenda items that would allow administrations to
> add items, effectively hijacking an agenda. The  conferences have
> controlled their agendas very tightly. Having rejected the allocation for
> consideration at WRC-03, the WRC-03 conference did put the topic on
> the agenda for WRC-2007, for which the background studies are now
> in progress in the ITU and elsewhere. As you know, under RAC
> auspices, Industry Canada has granted special authorizations to a
> number of amateurs (about 8) to conduct propagation experiments at
> 135.7 - 137.8 kHz in support of the allocation request, as well as for
> other reasons.
>
> Just before WRC-2003, the FCC in the USA was set to grant a
> domestic US allocation in this band to its amateurs, but cancelled at
> the last minute because power utilities raised concerns about the
> potential for interference to the monitoring and control of the power grid
> which the utilities do by controlled carrier plc in this band. The power
> companies just stated their objections; there was no experiment  or
> any proven problems of interference from amateurs. So it was  a
> political decision.
>
> Prior to WRC-2003, Canada had obtained CITEL and IARU support,
> and as you know, CEPT has authorized its amateurs to use this band
> for more than 15 years. No problems of interference to the power grids
> in CEPT countries are known, but they may use a different control
> system than is common in North America.
>
> Current Situation
>
> As we prepare for WRC-2007, IARUhas been supportive and support
> within CITEL has been building thanks to the general support and lead
> of the  Canadian delegation. In the studies at ITU, there has been
> support for the  allocation.
>
> However, because the utilities in the  USA were successful at quashing
> an amateur band allocation there, Industry Canada has suddenly
> become concerned and has gone to the utilities here for their reaction.
> Canada at present is somewhat hesitant to give us a full endorsement
> because the representative of the Canadian Electrical Association,
> who comes from Hydro Quebec in Montreal, is raising the fear of
> interference from amateur radio causing a shutdown in the power
> systems. Unfortunately, Hydro Quebec does use 136 kHz for control,
> right in downtown Montreal. The engineer is leaving the impression
> with Industry Canada that this is a potential problem across the
> country. Hydro Quebec is quite willing to conduct tests, but as far as I
> know, we don't have any amateurs currently interested in the band in
> Montreal. We note that all power utilities have been informed through
> the CEA, but that Hydro Quebec is the only one that seems fussed.
> The engineer from Hydro Quebec is concerned that the proposed
> amateur power limit of 1 watt eirp at 1 km would induce a 4dbm signal
> on the power lines. The plc monitoring and control system operates at -
> 14dbm (if I recall his numbers correctly).
>
> It has become very important to deal with this issue. We need to be
> able to go to the ITU study groups and to CITEL and say that it has
> been shown that the there are no problems with interference from
> amateur operations. The ideal solution would be to have an experiment
> at 136 kHz conducted with Hydro Quebec in downtown Montreal. I
> don't know if Hydro Quebec would accept the results of an experiment
> conducted elsewhere."
>
> So, what is the way ahead? There is no doubt that we have to address
> the problem with Hydro Quebec.
>
> My contacts in Montreal are working to see if they can come up with a
> site in downtown Montreal and if they can find an interested individual
> or club to take on an experiment as an urgent project. I have been
> encouraged by the chats I have had. I think it would be preferable, if
> at all possible, to conduct any experiment in Montreal as Hydro
> Quebec would be part of  the solution to the potential problem
> that they raised. An experiment that showed no interference at their
> operating frequency of 136 kHz in a geometry of their choosing would
> both allay their fears and also have have high credibility with IC and
> internationally.
>
> I hope to hear from Montreal in the next few days. In the meantime, I
> have been asked some questions by Hydro Quebec with which I would
> appreciate input from all of you.
>
> The first question that they asked is what would be a typical antenna
> arrangement ?
>
> Please give me a description of your transmitting setup and the
> antenna system. I have been trying to tell Hydro Quebec that there is
> no one system that is used by all amateurs, so we will need to give
> them some examples of typical installations. I presume that for the
> purposes of the experiment, we would not need a receiving system
> and receiving antennas, but I am open to your advice. Of course, an
> amateur or club that gets involved likely will want to continue and
> proceed to experiment with contacts with other amateurs, which would
> be another link in our cross-country chain.
>
> Hydro Quebec also asked: "-what would you suggest as a test
> "message" (including the duration of dots, dashes and spaces)?"
> Please give me a description of what you would recommend. Your
> beacon information also would be useful.
>
> As additional information, I think that it would be useful if you can find
> out and advise me what frequencies are used for power grid
> monitoring and control in your area. Hydro Quebec told IC in the last
> WRC preparatory meeting that utilities across Canada typically used a
> standard system, but your comments lead me to believe that this may
> not be so, and also that the technology is changing.
>
> I think that it also would be very useful to find out at what voltage
levels
> the power utilities exercise control. For example, you mentioned  5 KV
> lines in your area, but is grid monitoring and control really done at that
> voltage? I am going to try and find out from Hydro Quebec at what
> voltages they exercise control.
>
> I think that this info will be a good start. Again, my thanks for offering
> your help.
>
> You might be interested to know that at the WRC meeting, in which we
> discussed the 135 kHz issue, a number of the commercial groups
> asked why amateurs were interested in 135.7 - 137.8 kHz. I explained
> why and what we are doing. They were astounded. I don't think that
> many of the individuals realized that we are able to experiment; I had
> the feeling they regarded us as just a bunch of communicators like CB
> or FRS, with which they are familiar. A successful experiment with
> Hydro Quebec may well be important in highlighting the capabilities of
> the Amateur Service to other spectrum users who are after our
> frequencies!
>
> Enough soapbox!
>
> 73,
>
> Jim
>
> Date sent:      Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:56:37 -0800
> From:           "Scott Tilley, VE7TIL" <
> Subject:        Hydro Quebec and 2200m...
>
> > Dear Jim
> >
> > It has come to my attention that Hydro Quebec has raised concerns over
> > amateur operation on the 2200m band due to its present control scheme
> > which uses 136KHz in urban areas.  I have been advised that RAC is
> > seeking interested amateurs to conduct experiments in this region in
> > an effort to prove that amateur operations within the proposed 2200m
> > band will not have a negative impact on Hydro Quebec's control
> > operations.
> >
> > I would like to extend my technical support to such a project and
> > would offer whatever expertise and equipment as I can manage to help
> > get a VE2 station on the air in the Montreal area.  I can offer a
> > completed PCB and transmitter design to the interested party and the
> > necessary controller to operate a beacon/station.  I'm sure between
> > the rest of the other active amateur experimental stations that we
> > could muster a considerable support effort to get an interested
> > station on the air very quickly and start collecting data on the
> > possibility of interference from future amateur operations in
> > preparation for WRC-2007.
> >
> > Might I suggest this would be a perfect club project and I'm sure with
> > yours and others considerable connections a club in the area could be
> > asked to rise to the challenge.
> >
> > With the success we have had to date mapping and expanding what is
> > possible on 2200m in Canada a sales job should be easier.
> >
> > For the record, I have not received ANY complaints from neighbours,
> > officials or the primary users of the allocation after near continuous
> > 24/7 high power beacon operation on 137778.0Hz over the last 6+
> > months.  My QTH is urban Vancouver and I'm surrounded by 5KV lines on
> > three sides of my house.  In fact it has been my observation that my
> > HF activity produces more TVI within my home at lower power(<100W)
> > then my 600W operations on 2200m.  I believe this has to do with the
> > high Q of the antenna structure and the use of a high quality low pass
> > filter in the transmitter design.
> >
> > I have also informally spoken to the team leader of BC hydro's
> > communication team and he advised no concern what so ever about our
> > operations.  In fact, he described a gradual phasing out of LF
> > communication schemes in BC and the continued expansion of the
> > microwave links used throughout most of the province.  He advised that
> > Loran C was a greater concern then anything an amateur could muster.
> > This could be due to the fact that loran operates a transmitter quite
> > close to where most of BC hydro's LF comms is used on the northern
> > part of Vancouver Is.
> >
> > I'm seeking to reconnect with the above individual to begin a more
> > formal communication about the possibility of interference between our
> > respective services.
> >
> > Any guidance and leadership you can offer on this Jim would be greatly
> > appreciated.  Please keep me up to date and I'm very willing to
> > provide whatever support I can.
> >
> > 73 Scott, VE7TIL
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Jim Dean, VE3IQ
> 1134 Plante Drive
> Ottawa, ON, Canada, K1V 9E8
> Tel. (613) 733-5585; Fax. (613) 733-7613
>