Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dc09.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dc09.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.137]) by air-mb04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMB044-a2c34cd46c981c0; Fri, 05 Nov 2010 16:44:08 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc09.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6BC7A380000CD; Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PET78-00031E-Vj for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:42:22 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PET78-000315-7K for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:42:22 +0000 Received: from qmta11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.211]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PET77-0005Cl-25 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:42:22 +0000 Received: from omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.71]) by QMTA11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id TXVt1f00A1YDfWL5BYiE2o; Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:42:14 +0000 Received: from DELL4 ([76.23.233.102]) by omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id TYiD1f00W2DDHkk3gYiD6q; Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:42:14 +0000 Message-ID: <003501cb7d29$ece2d190$6d01a8c0@DELL4> From: To: References: <000601cb7cdc$f7010680$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:42:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,NO_REAL_NAME=0.55 Subject: Re: LF: WSPR window Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40894cd46c9750c0 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none John and group Your 'data mining' produced some misleading results and conclusions... > There were no "super strong groundwave" reports from W stations - in > fact nothing in +ve SNR figures at all. > > The best SNR for a potential Groundwave path was: > > 2010-10-31 01:52 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 -4 0 FN42pb 1 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 > > A mere -4dB SNR at 216km for a reported ERP of 1W - hardly bending the > needle! The spot you site above from WE2XGR/2 was made using the westerly direction of the 1000' beverage receive antenna. The front to back of the antenna knocked WD2XSH/17 signal down some 10 - 20 dB. Looking at last night's data using the beverage easterly direction (EU) we get the following for WD2XSH/17: 2010-11-05 03:10 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +10 -1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 03:00 WD2XSH/17 0.501091 +10 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:54 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +11 1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:44 WD2XSH/17 0.501091 +10 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:36 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +5 -1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:30 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +7 1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:22 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +9 1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:14 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +9 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 02:08 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +11 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 01:58 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +11 1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 01:52 WD2XSH/17 0.501091 +9 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 01:44 WD2XSH/17 0.501091 +10 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-11-05 01:36 WD2XSH/17 0.501091 +11 1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-10-31 02:22 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +4 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-10-31 02:14 WD2XSH/17 0.501090 +1 0 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 2010-10-31 02:06 WD2XSH/17 0.501091 +2 1 FN42pb +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 216 134 And for WD2XSH/37: 2010-11-05 03:02 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +6 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:52 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +7 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:46 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +5 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:40 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +4 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:30 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +2 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:24 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +4 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:14 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +3 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:06 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +4 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 02:00 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +5 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 01:50 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +8 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 01:42 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +10 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 2010-11-05 01:34 WD2XSH/37 0.501099 +10 0 FN42fo +30 1.000 WE2XGR/2 FN31is 171 106 Signal levels were significantly above the -4 dB that you site. Several other things to consider: this was an average night - signal levels can be significantly higher; there are more than just these two stations active on WSPR that put in similar, or stronger, signal levels; WD2XSH/17 is shown to be running only 1W erp at this time but he, and others, have run higher power in the past (WD2XSH limit is 20W ERP and WE2XGR limit is 200W ERP). Last year a number of stations using WSPR noted multiple 'phantom' spots when the decoder was presented with one or more strong (>+10) signals in the passband. In addition, there is the 'desensing' issue which negatively impacts the reception of weak signals. PA0A, for example, is the most consistently strong signal here and makes it across the pond much of the time. It's the weaker stations that are only received on rare ocassions that will suffer the most. I stick by my earlier comment that a clear shot at them will produce more and better results. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here ... just telling it the way it is. Jay