Return-Path: <owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> Received: from mtain-da03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-da03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.75]) by air-df02.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDF023-5ee84c0dfd684f; Tue, 08 Jun 2010 04:20:56 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-da03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 8191B380000D5; Tue, 8 Jun 2010 04:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OLu1g-0007Um-DO for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 Jun 2010 09:19:12 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OLu1f-0007Ud-Js for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 Jun 2010 09:19:11 +0100 Received: from out1.ip02ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.238]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>) id 1OLu1d-0007mX-AB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 08 Jun 2010 09:19:11 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnEMAEqaDUxOk8/d/2dsb2JhbACPAAOPPnFFvHSFFgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.53,383,1272841200"; d="scan'208,217";a="325021237" Received: from unknown (HELO your91hoehfy9g) ([78.147.207.221]) by out1.ip02ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 08 Jun 2010 09:18:57 +0100 Message-ID: <001301cb06e3$3e846d00$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> From: "mal hamilton" <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> References: <657E7065AC4C454AB63F6C7C2FF043F6@Black><AANLkTimpT_apwHXR97olUxilu3D_3F3ZfGx0Mj2Uf99o@mail.gmail.com><003101cb04c2$0913cc10$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><1607287044.1492139.1275754813942.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb034><BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C5107CB1257@ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be><38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C24@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de><7.0.1.0.1.20100606111158.018277a8@magma.ca><Pine.LNX.4.64.1006061604470.29015@plato.ucs.mun.ca><38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C28@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de><002001cb066b$9d0ddd70$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C5107CB125C@ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be> <AANLkTinPoJfcsvimCnovG8PVSdVMNMHNDE0n7CVsKwBo@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 09:18:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,WHY_WAIT=0.412 Subject: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01CB06EB.9FFC89C0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,WHY_WAIT autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: S x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d404b4c0dfd655131 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CB06EB.9FFC89C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger Your Final journey could be interesting without a Destination !!!!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roger Lapthorn=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? Dear Mal, People like to experiment, to try the impossible using all means at= their disposal. Not many of us have the opportunity, or indeed the wi= sh, to run many kWs and these days most don't have the space for large= antennas. So, we choose to try new and innovative techniques to overc= ome our limitations. Some of us will succeed and feel proud of our eff= orts. Others will fail, but will have learnt a lot on the way.=20 As some wise soul said, "the journey is more important than the dest= ination". It is better to try that to sit back and continually moan. 73s Roger G3XBM On 7 June 2010 20:09, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrot= e: brute force versus brains ? 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org] namens mal hamilton [g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Verzonden: maandag 7 juni 2010 20:02 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? The Dreamers band is now becoming more a Nightmare band A simple VLF experiment to exchange reports amongst radio amateurs= requires a Phd with the ability to manage a frequency stabity of 0.000000000000000000001 cycles otherwise you could be missed also= a speed of QRS 203573 taking several months or even years to send a DOT. Summer vacation taken up winding a large coil to resonate antenna.= The whole thing is not real. For a Radio Operator the task is difficult for an Appliance Operat= or impossible My approach is to generate K/watts of rf at the tx end and have= a suitable array of wire antennas at the rx end. Communications would be by= normal CW where frequency accuracy is not critical. Why wait around for months or years for a DOT to be heard when thi= s can be done on other bands like 137 or 500 kcs and HF. Commercial operators have already exploited these frequencies and= radio amateurs are re inventing the wheel g3kev ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:47 PM Subject: AW: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? Hi Joe, I don't know that RX but what i recommend is using the soundcard= of your PC (or an external) as the RX, just as Paul Nicholson and Jim and Wol= f and Markus and Renato and...... did it. You do not need an extra RX.= An extra usual RX is just a source of frequency instabilities (offset and= temperature drift). You have to have a very stable frequency, say 8970,00 Hz= +- 0,01 Hz. This can be reached by using your soundcard and e.g. DL4YHFs Spect= rum Lab(V2.75 b08 or higher versions) and compensating the frequency= drift by locking to a military reference MSK signal that is available almos= t all over the world. Then, in a first step you can watch the ALPHAs on 11904,762 Hz and= watch your accuracy. It should be an absolutely horizontal line! Theoretically, this could be tried this evening :-) Best 73 and good luck :-) Stefan/DK7FC ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von jcraig@mun.= ca Gesendet: So 06.06.2010 20:38 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? Hi Bill, Group. Just returned from a one week trip inland (Ottawa). Yes, I'm near= St John's and have acquired an ITT mackay 3031A which might be satisf= actory for VLF RX. Any comments on the suitability of this RX would be appreciated. 73 & TNX Joe VO1NA On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Bill de Carle wrote: > At 07:45 AM 6/6/2010, Stefan/DK7FC wrote: > [..] >> What about the canadian stations? These are in the shortest dis= tance to EU >> and will become a very important factor in some months when the= QRN levels >> decrease. Are there already stations who permantently monitor= the dreamers >> band (not the whole VLF) with a suitable RX system? Means, not= only copying >> the ALPHAs by ear but having a SLOW QRSS/DFCW window where DFCW= -600 or >> DFCW-6000 can be displayed. Here, it makes no sense to monitor= the ALPHAs >> and 8,97 kHz in e.g. 4 Hz FFT bandwith, what we need is 4 mHz!= So, that one >> DFCW element takes 10 minutes. Another important step is to hav= e a STABLE >> soundcard sample rate. This is well performed in the latest Spe= cLab >> version. Alternatively a GPS synchronisation or so is necessra= y! > [..] >> What do the canadians or US stns think about that? Any REAL int= erest? > > I have the necessary frequency stability/accuracy either already= in place or > easily arranged and I'm certainly interested, but unfortunately= I live inland > about 1000 miles from the East coast of Canada (the best Rx loca= tion would be > somewhere around St. Johns Newfoundland). Nevertheless, I'll se= e if I can > receive the Alpha signals for a start. I've been monitoring you= r experiments > and you guys have me all excited about this VLF stuff! > > 73, > Bill VE2IQ > > > --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CB06EB.9FFC89C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-88= 59-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your Final journey could be interesti= ng without a=20 Destination !!!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-L= EFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:= black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Drogerlapthorn@gmail.com href=3D"mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmai= l.com">Roger=20 Lapthorn</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_l= f_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 07, 2010= 9:27 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VLF: RX stations= in Canada=20 and US?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Mal,<BR><BR>People like to experiment, to try th= e=20 impossible using all means at their disposal. Not many of us have th= e=20 opportunity, or indeed the wish, to run many kWs and these days most= don't=20 have the space for large antennas. So, we choose to try new and inno= vative=20 techniques to overcome our limitations. Some of us will succeed and= feel proud=20 of our efforts. Others will fail, but will have learnt a lot on the= way.=20 <BR><BR>As some wise soul said, "the journey is more important than= the=20 destination". It is better to try that to sit back and continu= ally=20 moan.<BR><BR>73s<BR>Roger G3XBM<BR><BR><BR> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 7 June 2010 20:09, Rik Strobbe <SPAN dir= =3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be">Rik.Stro= bbe@fys.kuleuven.be</A>></SPAN>=20 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARG= IN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">brute= =20 force versus brains ?<BR><BR>73, Rik ON7YD -=20 OR7T<BR><BR>________________________________________<BR>Van: <A = href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org</A>=20 [<A href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner= -rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>]=20 namens mal hamilton [<A href=3D"mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net= ">g3kevmal@talktalk.net</A>]<BR>Verzonden:=20 maandag 7 juni 2010 20:02<BR>Aan: <A href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>Onderwerp:= =20 Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?<BR> <DIV class=3Dim><BR>The Dreamers band is now becoming more a Night= mare=20 band<BR>A simple VLF experiment to exchange reports amongst radio= amateurs=20 requires<BR>a Phd with the ability to manage a frequency stabity= =20 of<BR>0.000000000000000000001 cycles otherwise you could be missed= also a=20 speed of<BR>QRS 203573 taking several months or even years= to send a=20 DOT.<BR>Summer vacation taken up winding a large coil to resonate= antenna.=20 The whole<BR>thing is not real.<BR>For a Radio Operator the task= is=20 difficult for an Appliance Operator<BR>impossible<BR>My approach= is to=20 generate K/watts of rf at the tx end and have a=20 suitable<BR>array of wire antennas at the rx end. Communicat= ions would=20 be by normal CW<BR>where frequency accuracy is not critical.<BR>Wh= y wait=20 around for months or years for a DOT to be heard when this can be<= BR>done on=20 other bands like 137 or 500 kcs and HF.<BR>Commercial operators ha= ve already=20 exploited these frequencies and radio<BR>amateurs are re inventing= the=20 wheel<BR>g3kev<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "S= tefan=20 Sch=E4fer" <<A href=3D"mailto:schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.d= e">schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de</A>><BR>To:=20 <<A href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_= group@blacksheep.org</A>><BR>Sent:=20 Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:47 PM<BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=3Dh5>Subject: AW: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?<BR= ><BR><BR>Hi=20 Joe,<BR><BR>I don't know that RX but what i recommend is using the= soundcard=20 of your PC<BR>(or an external) as the RX, just as Paul Nicholson= and Jim and=20 Wolf and<BR>Markus and Renato and...... did it. You do not need an= extra RX.=20 An extra<BR>usual RX is just a source of frequency instabilities= (offset and=20 temperature<BR>drift). You have to have a very stable frequency,= say 8970,00=20 Hz +- 0,01 Hz.<BR>This can be reached by using your soundcard and= e.g.=20 DL4YHFs Spectrum<BR>Lab(V2.75 b08 or higher versions) and compensa= ting the=20 frequency drift by<BR>locking to a military reference MSK signal= that is=20 available almost all over<BR>the world.<BR>Then, in a first step= you can=20 watch the ALPHAs on 11904,762 Hz and watch<BR>your accuracy. It sh= ould be an=20 absolutely horizontal line!<BR>Theoretically, this could be tried= this=20 evening :-)<BR><BR>Best 73 and good luck=20 :-)<BR><BR>Stefan/DK7FC<BR><BR>________________________________<BR= ><BR>Von:=20 <A href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20 im Auftrag von <A href=3D"mailto:jcraig@mun.ca">jcraig@mun.ca</A><= BR>Gesendet:=20 So 06.06.2010 20:38<BR>An: <A href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>Betreff:=20 Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Bill,=20 Group.<BR><BR>Just returned from a one week trip inland (Ottawa).= Yes,=20 I'm near St<BR>John's and have acquired an ITT mackay 3031A which= might be=20 satisfactory<BR>for VLF RX. Any comments on the suitability of thi= s RX would=20 be<BR>appreciated.<BR><BR>73 & TNX<BR>Joe VO1NA<BR><BR>On Sun,= 6 Jun=20 2010, Bill de Carle wrote:<BR><BR>> At 07:45 AM 6/6/2010, Stefa= n/DK7FC=20 wrote:<BR>> [..]<BR>>> What about the canadian stations?= These are=20 in the shortest distance to<BR>EU<BR>>> and will become a ve= ry=20 important factor in some months when the QRN<BR>levels<BR>>>= decrease.=20 Are there already stations who permantently monitor=20 the<BR>dreamers<BR>>> band (not the whole VLF) with a suitab= le RX=20 system? Means, not only<BR>copying<BR>>> the ALPHAs by ear= but having=20 a SLOW QRSS/DFCW window where DFCW-600 or<BR>>> DFCW-6000 ca= n be=20 displayed. Here, it makes no sense to monitor the ALPHAs<BR>>&g= t; and=20 8,97 kHz in e.g. 4 Hz FFT bandwith, what we need is 4 mHz! So,=20 that<BR>one<BR>>> DFCW element takes 10 minutes. Another imp= ortant=20 step is to have a STABLE<BR>>> soundcard sample rate. This= is well=20 performed in the latest SpecLab<BR>>> version. Alternatively= a GPS=20 synchronisation or so is necessray!<BR>> [..]<BR>>>= What do=20 the canadians or US stns think about that? Any REAL=20 interest?<BR>><BR>> I have the necessary frequency stability= /accuracy=20 either already in place<BR>or<BR>> easily arranged and I'm cert= ainly=20 interested, but unfortunately I live<BR>inland<BR>> about 1000= miles from=20 the East coast of Canada (the best Rx location would<BR>be<BR>>= somewhere=20 around St. Johns Newfoundland). Nevertheless, I'll see if I= =20 can<BR>> receive the Alpha signals for a start. I've been= =20 monitoring your<BR>experiments<BR>> and you guys have me all ex= cited=20 about this VLF stuff!<BR>><BR>> 73,<BR>> Bill=20 VE2IQ<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><B= R><BR clear=3Dall><BR>-- <BR><A href=3D"http://g3xbm-qrp.blogs= pot.com/">http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/</A><BR><A href=3D"http://= www.g3xbm.co.uk">http://www.g3xbm.co.uk</A><BR><A href=3D"http://w= ww.youtube.com/user/g3xbm">http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm</A><BR>G3= XBM=20 GQRP 1678 ISWL=20 G11088<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CB06EB.9FFC89C0--