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From: "mal hamilton" <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
References: <657E7065AC4C454AB63F6C7C2FF043F6@Black><AANLkTimpT_apwHXR97olUxilu3D_3F3ZfGx0Mj2Uf99o@mail.gmail.com><003101cb04c2$0913cc10$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><1607287044.1492139.1275754813942.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb034><BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C5107CB1257@ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be><38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C24@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de><7.0.1.0.1.20100606111158.018277a8@magma.ca><Pine.LNX.4.64.1006061604470.29015@plato.ucs.mun.ca><38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C28@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de><002001cb066b$9d0ddd70$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf><BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C5107CB125C@ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be> <AANLkTinPoJfcsvimCnovG8PVSdVMNMHNDE0n7CVsKwBo@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?
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Roger
Your Final journey could be interesting without a Destination !!!!!

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Roger Lapthorn=20
  To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
  Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:27 PM
  Subject: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?


  Dear Mal,

  People like to experiment, to try the impossible using all means at=
 their disposal. Not many of us have the opportunity, or indeed the wi=
sh, to run many kWs and these days most don't have the space for large=
 antennas. So, we choose to try new and innovative techniques to overc=
ome our limitations. Some of us will succeed and feel proud of our eff=
orts. Others will fail, but will have learnt a lot on the way.=20

  As some wise soul said, "the journey is more important than the dest=
ination".  It is better to try that to sit back and continually moan.

  73s
  Roger G3XBM



  On 7 June 2010 20:09, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrot=
e:

    brute force versus brains ?

    73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

    ________________________________________
    Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@black=
sheep.org] namens mal hamilton [g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
    Verzonden: maandag 7 juni 2010 20:02
    Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
    Onderwerp: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?


    The Dreamers band is now becoming more a Nightmare band
    A simple VLF experiment to exchange reports amongst radio amateurs=
 requires
    a Phd with the ability to manage a frequency stabity of
    0.000000000000000000001 cycles otherwise you could be missed also=
 a speed of
    QRS  203573 taking several months or even years to send a DOT.
    Summer vacation taken up winding a large coil to resonate antenna.=
 The whole
    thing is not real.
    For a Radio Operator the task is difficult for an Appliance Operat=
or
    impossible
    My approach is to generate K/watts of rf at the tx end and  have=
 a  suitable
    array of wire antennas at the rx end. Communications would be by=
 normal CW
    where frequency accuracy is not critical.
    Why wait around for months or years for a DOT to be heard when thi=
s can be
    done on other bands like 137 or 500 kcs and HF.
    Commercial operators have already exploited these frequencies and=
 radio
    amateurs are re inventing the wheel
    g3kev


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
    To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
    Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:47 PM

    Subject: AW: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?


    Hi Joe,

    I don't know that RX but what i recommend is using the soundcard=
 of your PC
    (or an external) as the RX, just as Paul Nicholson and Jim and Wol=
f and
    Markus and Renato and...... did it. You do not need an extra RX.=
 An extra
    usual RX is just a source of frequency instabilities (offset and=
 temperature
    drift). You have to have a very stable frequency, say 8970,00 Hz=
 +- 0,01 Hz.
    This can be reached by using your soundcard and e.g. DL4YHFs Spect=
rum
    Lab(V2.75 b08 or higher versions) and compensating the frequency=
 drift by
    locking to a military reference MSK signal that is available almos=
t all over
    the world.
    Then, in a first step you can watch the ALPHAs on 11904,762 Hz and=
 watch
    your accuracy. It should be an absolutely horizontal line!
    Theoretically, this could be tried this evening :-)

    Best 73 and good luck :-)

    Stefan/DK7FC

    ________________________________

    Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von jcraig@mun.=
ca
    Gesendet: So 06.06.2010 20:38
    An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
    Betreff: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?



    Hi Bill, Group.

    Just returned from a one week trip inland (Ottawa).  Yes, I'm near=
 St
    John's and have acquired an ITT mackay 3031A which might be satisf=
actory
    for VLF RX. Any comments on the suitability of this RX would be
    appreciated.

    73 & TNX
    Joe VO1NA

    On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Bill de Carle wrote:

    > At 07:45 AM 6/6/2010, Stefan/DK7FC wrote:
    > [..]
    >> What about the canadian stations? These are in the shortest dis=
tance to
    EU
    >> and will become a very important factor in some months when the=
 QRN
    levels
    >> decrease. Are there already stations who permantently monitor=
 the
    dreamers
    >> band (not the whole VLF) with a suitable RX system? Means, not=
 only
    copying
    >> the ALPHAs by ear but having a SLOW QRSS/DFCW window where DFCW=
-600 or
    >> DFCW-6000 can be displayed. Here, it makes no sense to monitor=
 the ALPHAs
    >> and 8,97 kHz in e.g. 4 Hz FFT bandwith, what we need is 4 mHz!=
 So, that
    one
    >> DFCW element takes 10 minutes. Another important step is to hav=
e a STABLE
    >> soundcard sample rate. This is well performed in the latest Spe=
cLab
    >> version. Alternatively a GPS synchronisation  or so is necessra=
y!
    > [..]
    >> What do the canadians or US stns think about that? Any REAL int=
erest?
    >
    > I have the necessary frequency stability/accuracy either already=
 in place
    or
    > easily arranged and I'm certainly interested, but unfortunately=
 I live
    inland
    > about 1000 miles from the East coast of Canada (the best Rx loca=
tion would
    be
    > somewhere around St. Johns Newfoundland).  Nevertheless, I'll se=
e if I can
    > receive the Alpha signals for a start.  I've been monitoring you=
r
    experiments
    > and you guys have me all excited about this VLF stuff!
    >
    > 73,
    > Bill VE2IQ
    >
    >
    >




  --=20
  http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
  http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
  http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
  G3XBM    GQRP 1678      ISWL G11088

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-88=
59-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your Final journey could be interesti=
ng without a=20
Destination !!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE   style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-L=
EFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV     style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=
 black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Drogerlapthorn@gmail.com href=3D"mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmai=
l.com">Roger=20
  Lapthorn</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drsgb_lf_group@=
blacksheep.org     href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_l=
f_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 07, 2010=
 9:27 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VLF: RX stations=
 in Canada=20
  and US?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Mal,<BR><BR>People like to experiment, to try th=
e=20
  impossible using all means at their disposal. Not many of us have th=
e=20
  opportunity, or indeed the wish, to run many kWs and these days most=
 don't=20
  have the space for large antennas. So, we choose to try new and inno=
vative=20
  techniques to overcome our limitations. Some of us will succeed and=
 feel proud=20
  of our efforts. Others will fail, but will have learnt a lot on the=
 way.=20
  <BR><BR>As some wise soul said, "the journey is more important than=
 the=20
  destination".&nbsp; It is better to try that to sit back and continu=
ally=20
  moan.<BR><BR>73s<BR>Roger G3XBM<BR><BR><BR>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 7 June 2010 20:09, Rik Strobbe <SPAN dir=
=3Dltr>&lt;<A     href=3D"mailto:Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be">Rik.Stro=
bbe@fys.kuleuven.be</A>&gt;</SPAN>=20
  wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote     style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARG=
IN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">brute=
=20
    force versus brains ?<BR><BR>73, Rik &nbsp;ON7YD -=20
    OR7T<BR><BR>________________________________________<BR>Van: <A =
      href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-rsgb_lf=
_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20
    [<A       href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner=
-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>]=20
    namens mal hamilton [<A       href=3D"mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net=
">g3kevmal@talktalk.net</A>]<BR>Verzonden:=20
    maandag 7 juni 2010 20:02<BR>Aan: <A       href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_=
group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>Onderwerp:=
=20
    Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?<BR>
    <DIV class=3Dim><BR>The Dreamers band is now becoming more a Night=
mare=20
    band<BR>A simple VLF experiment to exchange reports amongst radio=
 amateurs=20
    requires<BR>a Phd with the ability to manage a frequency stabity=
=20
    of<BR>0.000000000000000000001 cycles otherwise you could be missed=
 also a=20
    speed of<BR>QRS &nbsp;203573 taking several months or even years=
 to send a=20
    DOT.<BR>Summer vacation taken up winding a large coil to resonate=
 antenna.=20
    The whole<BR>thing is not real.<BR>For a Radio Operator the task=
 is=20
    difficult for an Appliance Operator<BR>impossible<BR>My approach=
 is to=20
    generate K/watts of rf at the tx end and &nbsp;have a=20
    &nbsp;suitable<BR>array of wire antennas at the rx end. Communicat=
ions would=20
    be by normal CW<BR>where frequency accuracy is not critical.<BR>Wh=
y wait=20
    around for months or years for a DOT to be heard when this can be<=
BR>done on=20
    other bands like 137 or 500 kcs and HF.<BR>Commercial operators ha=
ve already=20
    exploited these frequencies and radio<BR>amateurs are re inventing=
 the=20
    wheel<BR>g3kev<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "S=
tefan=20
    Sch=E4fer" &lt;<A       href=3D"mailto:schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.d=
e">schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de</A>&gt;<BR>To:=20
    &lt;<A       href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_=
group@blacksheep.org</A>&gt;<BR>Sent:=20
    Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:47 PM<BR></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3Dh5>Subject: AW: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?<BR=
><BR><BR>Hi=20
    Joe,<BR><BR>I don't know that RX but what i recommend is using the=
 soundcard=20
    of your PC<BR>(or an external) as the RX, just as Paul Nicholson=
 and Jim and=20
    Wolf and<BR>Markus and Renato and...... did it. You do not need an=
 extra RX.=20
    An extra<BR>usual RX is just a source of frequency instabilities=
 (offset and=20
    temperature<BR>drift). You have to have a very stable frequency,=
 say 8970,00=20
    Hz +- 0,01 Hz.<BR>This can be reached by using your soundcard and=
 e.g.=20
    DL4YHFs Spectrum<BR>Lab(V2.75 b08 or higher versions) and compensa=
ting the=20
    frequency drift by<BR>locking to a military reference MSK signal=
 that is=20
    available almost all over<BR>the world.<BR>Then, in a first step=
 you can=20
    watch the ALPHAs on 11904,762 Hz and watch<BR>your accuracy. It sh=
ould be an=20
    absolutely horizontal line!<BR>Theoretically, this could be tried=
 this=20
    evening :-)<BR><BR>Best 73 and good luck=20
    :-)<BR><BR>Stefan/DK7FC<BR><BR>________________________________<BR=
><BR>Von:=20
    <A       href=3D"mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">owner-=
rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A>=20
    im Auftrag von <A href=3D"mailto:jcraig@mun.ca">jcraig@mun.ca</A><=
BR>Gesendet:=20
    So 06.06.2010 20:38<BR>An: <A       href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@b=
lacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A><BR>Betreff:=20
    Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Bill,=20
    Group.<BR><BR>Just returned from a one week trip inland (Ottawa).=
 &nbsp;Yes,=20
    I'm near St<BR>John's and have acquired an ITT mackay 3031A which=
 might be=20
    satisfactory<BR>for VLF RX. Any comments on the suitability of thi=
s RX would=20
    be<BR>appreciated.<BR><BR>73 &amp; TNX<BR>Joe VO1NA<BR><BR>On Sun,=
 6 Jun=20
    2010, Bill de Carle wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; At 07:45 AM 6/6/2010, Stefa=
n/DK7FC=20
    wrote:<BR>&gt; [..]<BR>&gt;&gt; What about the canadian stations?=
 These are=20
    in the shortest distance to<BR>EU<BR>&gt;&gt; and will become a ve=
ry=20
    important factor in some months when the QRN<BR>levels<BR>&gt;&gt;=
 decrease.=20
    Are there already stations who permantently monitor=20
    the<BR>dreamers<BR>&gt;&gt; band (not the whole VLF) with a suitab=
le RX=20
    system? Means, not only<BR>copying<BR>&gt;&gt; the ALPHAs by ear=
 but having=20
    a SLOW QRSS/DFCW window where DFCW-600 or<BR>&gt;&gt; DFCW-6000 ca=
n be=20
    displayed. Here, it makes no sense to monitor the ALPHAs<BR>&gt;&g=
t; and=20
    8,97 kHz in e.g. 4 Hz FFT bandwith, what we need is 4 mHz! So,=20
    that<BR>one<BR>&gt;&gt; DFCW element takes 10 minutes. Another imp=
ortant=20
    step is to have a STABLE<BR>&gt;&gt; soundcard sample rate. This=
 is well=20
    performed in the latest SpecLab<BR>&gt;&gt; version. Alternatively=
 a GPS=20
    synchronisation &nbsp;or so is necessray!<BR>&gt; [..]<BR>&gt;&gt;=
 What do=20
    the canadians or US stns think about that? Any REAL=20
    interest?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I have the necessary frequency stability=
/accuracy=20
    either already in place<BR>or<BR>&gt; easily arranged and I'm cert=
ainly=20
    interested, but unfortunately I live<BR>inland<BR>&gt; about 1000=
 miles from=20
    the East coast of Canada (the best Rx location would<BR>be<BR>&gt;=
 somewhere=20
    around St. Johns Newfoundland). &nbsp;Nevertheless, I'll see if I=
=20
    can<BR>&gt; receive the Alpha signals for a start. &nbsp;I've been=
=20
    monitoring your<BR>experiments<BR>&gt; and you guys have me all ex=
cited=20
    about this VLF stuff!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 73,<BR>&gt; Bill=20
    VE2IQ<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><B=
R><BR     clear=3Dall><BR>-- <BR><A     href=3D"http://g3xbm-qrp.blogs=
pot.com/">http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/</A><BR><A     href=3D"http://=
www.g3xbm.co.uk">http://www.g3xbm.co.uk</A><BR><A     href=3D"http://w=
ww.youtube.com/user/g3xbm">http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm</A><BR>G3=
XBM=20
  &nbsp; &nbsp;GQRP 1678 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ISWL=20
G11088<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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