Return-Path: Received: from rly-dc03.mx.aol.com (rly-dc03.mail.aol.com [172.19.136.32]) by air-dc03.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDC034-b0d47b64433314; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:02:53 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dc03.mx.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDC031-b0d47b64433314; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:02:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1JQCN0-00041H-Oo for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:01:38 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1JQCN0-000418-A9 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:01:38 +0000 Received: from smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.62]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JQCMw-00066N-SM for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:01:38 +0000 Received: (qmail 42712 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2008 02:01:08 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=P+M6vTqavyjW90QteYUa5zWR86VKEsKEZqKAAWqe9eAFv9i17ptxU+mjSC+SXYNNMCgTfCW8A820Q+0p4Ur7d7fA9ZPaN3j3pgh4NN4Y5GGIPxH0nfv+6xSS+fb0grzmu6NOfQw6PXBiYyGpIALskOEKFQzi1SJKqV1Q3sfTTTQ= ; Received: from unknown (HELO w4o8m9) (james.moritz@btopenworld.com@81.131.56.105 with login) by smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Feb 2008 02:01:07 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: WN4aGZcVM1nxiFT0JEl7NRwKGg8ToouPEaS3D18z.w74o2_OdMjmo97bhYI5qjiaXQ1q9WgYOA-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.5.516 [269.20.5/1279]); Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:58:03 +0000 Message-ID: <001101c8703f$5da368e0$69388351@w4o8m9> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <021420082154.26694.47B4B8AF000ED3D10000684622155863949C9D01CD05@comcast.net> <000b01c86f6d$8dbf6bf0$0d00000a@AGB> <01d301c86fba$5d7f4080$0301a8c0@g3kev> <000d01c86fd3$b60ac1c0$412d7ad5@w4o8m9> <000701c86ff0$eb48cc70$0301a8c0@g3kev> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:56:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Karma: 0: DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: LF: Re: NOV UPDATE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_helo : n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_822_from : n Dear Mal, LF Group, You wrote: > Most of what you say is theoritical and guesswork, in reality you could be > at least 10 db out and that makes a big difference. > Your figures in the past on 137 khz varied between 6 and 10 db by your own > admission. Actually, what I said is backed by hundreds of practical measurements by myself and others. With care, the results are very consistent; I find that field strength measurements are repeatable within +/-1dB for a particular antenna. The measured ERP with an antenna in an "open field" location will agree quite accurately with the theoretical ERP calculations from antenna current and dimensions. Antennas in less-than-ideal environments give measured ERP that is less than the theoretical ERP. This is not surprising, since the simple theoretical formulae make no attempt to model environmental effects. For the antennas I have tested at my QTH, the reduction in ERP is about 3 - 6 dB. This is a characteristic of a particular antenna and its environment, not any kind of error. > Amateur radio design and applications on MF and LF are not an exact science. > Mal/G3KEV No experimental science is exact, but using simple calculations and measurements with a tape measure and an RF ammeter, you can come up with a figure for radiated power that is within a few dB of the correct value at LF or MF. This is remarkable when compared to antenna measurements in most other parts of the spectrum. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU