Message-ID: <000c01d02b55$440817e0$6401a8c0@JAYDELL>
From: <jrusgrove@comcast.net>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
References: <46D2E1AF22D14849AD1095081F7613AB@AGB>, <FE2CD976237848008CB5F84E8291A688@AGB>, <54AD702F.1009.1A52347@mike.dennison.ntlworld.com> <54AE61EB.7134.397DF4@mike.dennison.ntlworld.com> <C78AA868025844D1AA86642B40F70DEC@AGB>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 10:10:40 -0500
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Subject: Re: LF: New version  OPERA  >>  ''Opera Dynamic'' <<  
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Status: O

Graham

I won't be quite a 'charatable' as Mike ...

There were at least two false detections on my transmitted signal (WD2XNS) last night that I saw ... 
one into G and one into SV. About the only way to tell they were false detections was the time lag 
between actual and the 'Deep Search' output - it wasn't the expected 4 minutes. Had there been no 
'real' receptions during that time period one might have actually believed what was reported ... as 
you did and reported on the Yahoo reflector.

On receive from here last night from there were false detections of VO1NA.

I saw one detection of a G station in JA make the list! This was clearly a false detection. No doubt 
there were plenty of other false detections but after this couple hour 'outing' with 1.5.5 I gave up 
on it. It's clearly not ready for prime time and should be pulled from circulation and return to the 
drawing board!

Perhaps the author, instead of taking the time to write a 'propaganda' .pdf page about DF6NM's OPDS 
and include it with the download, should spend more time actually making his software work as well 
as Markus's. In almost a year of using OPDS I have identified only one false detection. This is 
severly at odds with Jose's test of OPDS. Since Jose seems to now like the idea of Deep Search, 
maybe he should 'borrow' more ideas from Markus ... like the correlation % and dB 'certainty' 
indicator, an accurate time indicator and a highly accurate frequency readout. These indicators, 
especially when correlated with other OPDS users grabbers, makes the very rare false detection with 
OPDS obvious.

At this point Markus's OPDS runs circles around Jose's Deep Search ... regardless of what his 
'propaganda' page says.

Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham" <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: LF: New version OPERA >> ''Opera Dynamic'' <<


> Hi Mike,
>
> It is actually set  to   just over 5 dB  gain over the  standard  Opera system , the opds  s/n 
> reports  can be  upto  4  db's  lower for  the  same signal , but  interims  of  ultimate 
> sensitivity , the 11 dB  advantage was not demonstrated  in testing ,
>
> Its interesting to note ,  that  the  search  detection could  only  improve on the  Opera  data 
> decoder  by  5 or 6  dB  for the  same  level  of reliability , which as a  data  mode , points to 
> it  being  quite efficient
>
>   Your right , you  have now 2 systems  in one  package , watching last night ,  I could see some 
> miss-decodes from  both , but  the  dynamic  list remained  valid , which is  one  of the  design 
> features and will  minimise its content  on a  8  day  rolling schedule
>
> Compared  to  the  initial roll  out ,  when  the  news  groups  lit  up with   'too much cpu' 
> and   we  hate OOK  mfsk is  better etc   ,  I think the  launch   went  quite  well , its really 
> to  the  user as to what  use is made of  the available  systems , Jose  maintains  this is a 
> hobby ..
>
> Early  days yet ,
>
> 73-Graham,
> G0NBD
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike Dennison" <mike.dennison@ntlworld.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 10:54 AM
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>; <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: LF: New version  OPERA  >>  ''Opera Dynamic'' <<
>
>> Having taken a long look at Opera 1.5.5, it seems to have good and
>> band points, but is useful if used with great caution.
>>
>> On the plus side, it appears to have some 3dB more sensitivity than
>> previous versions of Opera. This is not better than DF6NM's OPDS
>> program, but that is more complex to set up.
>>
>> On the minus side is the number of believable false decodes which I
>> think are being underestimated by the program's advocates. For
>> instance, on day one one third of the times that my transmissions
>> were reported I was off the air. On day two I transmitted once but
>> was reported on two occasions. However, all of these false decodes
>> were one-offs, in other words only one station reported me at that
>> time, whereas several reported the genuine transmissions.
>>
>> So, v1.5.5 looks very useful but any decodes that are reported by
>> just one station has a high likelihood (but not certainty) of being
>> false. For this reason, I would not advise using this version without
>> having a web connection, or at least cross-checking later against the
>> web archive.
>>
>> Mike, G3XDV
>> ==========
>>
>>> Graham, thanks for the useful info. I have sent you a direct email
>>> with some constructive suggestions.
>>>
>>> One snag with false decodes of this type is that you don't know they
>>> are false unless the sender denies he was sending (or propagation is
>>> impossible) at that time, so there will be statistically far fewer
>>> reports of false decodes than there are in reality. I transmitted four
>>> times in the last 24 hours and there were two additional decodes
>>> falsely carryng my callsign in the same period. That's two out of a
>>> total of six, ie 33%.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> Mike
>>> =====
>>>
>>> > Some points Mike
>>> >
>>> > 200%F  is  a  bodge to get the  text  beacon via   the  server , not
>>> > showing  in my  latest  spot listing ?
>>> >
>>> >  JA8SCD de SWL-JA8SCD/1 (): Op32 0 mi -41 dB in Tokyo with 0w +
>>> > 16:29    136 JA8SCD de JA8SCD/1 Op32 Deep Search 0 mi -41 dB in
>>> > Tokyo with 0w +
>>> >
>>> > 4 Min processing  delay  showing  in these  detection's
>>> >
>>> > 16:15    136 LA3EQ de G4WGT Op32 Deep Search 468 mi -43 dB in
>>> > Chorley, IO83qo, with 0.2w + Marconi-T 16:11    136 LA3EQ de G8HUH
>>> > Op32 605 mi -34 dB F:15% in Somerset with 0.2w + Marconi-T
>>> >
>>> > 17:23    136 LA3EQ de GW0EZY Op32 Deep Search 541 mi -42 dB in
>>> > Welshpool IO82ho with 0.2w + Marconi-T 17:23    136 LA3EQ de 2E0ILY
>>> > Op32 Deep Search 505 mi -42 dB in Shropshire IO82qv with 0.2w +
>>> > Marconi-T 17:19    136 LA3EQ de G8HUH Op32 605 mi -33 dB F:1% in
>>> > Somerset with 0.2w + Marconi-T
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >> Nothing  can be  100% ,   Dynamic   detections ,  will  show   1
>>> > >> minuet after  conventional OP8   and   4  minuets   after  a
>>> > >> conventional  OP32  decode , this  is due  to  data  processing
>>> > >> time and  is a  fixed  off  set  , Time can be  used  as  a
>>> > >> reality
>>> > >>  check
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There  are now  two  entirely  different  systems  packaged  in the
>>> > one application ,  the  original Opera  data  mode , which is
>>> > capable  of presenting  the  fade pattern  and  the  s/n ,  the
>>> > other
>>> >  relies  on  call matching  and  presents  s/n only  , hence  the
>>> > 'odd' 200%F  , the  dynamic search has been trailed  on  normal
>>> > 'ham' kit and  provides an extension to the  existing  system .
>>> >
>>> > Before  any  variations  are  attempted ,  off  air  stats  are
>>> > needed , there  was  close  to  100  instances  of  V155  in use
>>> > since  its launch ,  with  only  1 error  that  would be   1% .
>>> > Occurrences  will
>>> >  be statistically  related to  user  numbers
>>> >
>>> > Where  it  is  unfortunate   'real'  calls  are  produced  , the
>>> > time delay  presents a  simple , at a glance spot-check , the
>>> > integrity of the original  system has not  been  compromised, at the
>>> >  moment  the list has a  8 day  life , this  could be  reduced , but
>>> >  with the  7 day operating cycle ,  8  provides overlap
>>> >
>>> > 73-G,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --------------------------------------------------
>>> > From: "Mike Dennison" <mike.dennison@ntlworld.com>
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 3:37 PM
>>> > To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: LF: New version  OPERA  >>  ''Opera Dynamic'' <<
>>> >
>>> > > Sorry, Graham, but you are wrong. Last night's results did not
>>> > > "give a good working compromise between real and false
>>> > > detections." There were several very plausible but false decodes.
>>> > > These appeared much more frequently than they do on OPDS which in
>>> > > any case gives enough additional information on signal quality to
>>> > > be able to spot most false decodes. It's a nice idea, but the
>>> > > real/false threshold is set much too far towards 'real', making
>>> > > the resultant information next to useless.
>>> > >
>>> > > And what is the "200%" fade figure all about? I am 1000% sure I
>>> > > don't know.
>>> > >
>>> > > Mike, G3XDV
>>> > > ==========
>>> > >
>>> > >> All,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Other  than  the  odd  false  spot , that looked to  be  quite  a
>>> > >> good  launch  for the  new  addition  to  Opera
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Nothing  can be  100% ,   Dynamic   detections ,  will  show   1
>>> > >> minuet after  conventional OP8   and   4  minuets   after  a
>>> > >> conventional  OP32  decode , this  is due  to  data  processing
>>> > >> time and  is a  fixed  off  set  , Time can be  used  as  a
>>> > >> reality
>>> > >>  check .
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Dynamic  compares   Call Signs  with  activity , to provide  the
>>> > >> lowest  possible  detection  levels , to  do  this  ,  Opera
>>> > >> changes mode  to  give  a  second  chance  detection , based on
>>> > >> s/n , The detection  threshold has been  set  to  give a good
>>> > >> working compromise between  real and  false detections.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>  Noting , each individual transmission is  processed
>>> > >>  independently , Conventional  and Dynamic  processes  are
>>> > >>  running  in parallel
>>> > >>
>>> > >> 73-Graham
>>> > >> G0NBD
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> From: Graham
>>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 8:38 PM
>>> > >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>>> > >> Subject: LF: New version OPERA >> ''Opera Dynamic'' <<
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> New  version  of  opera  up-loaded
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Opera Dynamic: Introduces   the  first, adaptive  multi mode
>>> > >> Beacon decoding/detection  system , seamlessly  taking over from
>>> > >> the  Opera data  decoder  and  dynamically configuring  the  low
>>> > >> level  detector.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Opera Dynamic  is  configured  for  MF OP8  and  LF OP32   ,
>>> > >> providing
>>> > >>  a dynamically   configured  low  level  detection  mode ,
>>> > >> complimenting  the  Opera  Data mode ,
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Opera Dynamic  forms  part  of  the  windows  distributed
>>> > >> package ,
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> 73-Graham
>>> > >>
>>> > >> G0NBD
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> UPLOAD
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>   http://rosmodem.wordpress.com/
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> SUPPORT
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/O_P_E_R_A_/info
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> https://www.facebook.com/groups/operadatamode/
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> -----
>>> > >> No virus found in this message.
>>> > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> > >> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8885 - Release Date:
>>> > >> 01/07/15
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----
>>> > No virus found in this message.
>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> > Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8885 - Release Date:
>>> > 01/07/15
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8885 - Release Date:
>>> 01/07/15
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>