Return-Path: Received: from rly-ma10.mx.aol.com (rly-ma10.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.54]) by air-ma04.mail.aol.com (v121_r2.12) with ESMTP id MAILINMA042-8d548b2ec9b207; Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:32:51 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-ma10.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMA107-8d548b2ec9b207; Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:32:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1KXfv2-0006nK-Ew for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:31:56 +0100 Received: from [193.82.59.130] (helo=relay2.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1KXfv1-0006nB-Pt for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:31:55 +0100 Received: from smtp809.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.69]) by relay2.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KXfuy-0008Lh-3M for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:31:55 +0100 Received: (qmail 75941 invoked from network); 25 Aug 2008 17:31:45 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=VNCN2shu7wDUCoGZfpz1FtatZNpZYqZtGRSNY/jlTapmYx3UABimLaYvfKcZlfWoYDSYDiE2FpCJ1jrWCrxNyK+xUhNJT8v9FTGHRem07/w11UbCjadg6anuIuD839VZnC6OVsX4RB/wdzL6YkELHqoeCzvzOZIAmP67h660444= ; Received: from unknown (HELO w4o8m9) (james.moritz@btopenworld.com@86.135.190.93 with login) by smtp809.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 2008 17:31:45 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: tVOTxmwVM1nZETsQc084H4mRgWqwwyNodDPwUrx8ydeBytKQuNjJPMeDPO5O4xX7fGSBOpPa8spKAI9sMGfmn_01aM0jRS5lg7_i2ZapUOMhu1nusskc5oYrf2v1qfUVN5c- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.5.524 [270.6.7/1632]); Mon, 25 Aug 2008 02:26:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c90651$94cdc240$4201a8c0@home> From: "James Moritz" To: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 02:26:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,AWL=0.277,RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.327 Subject: LF: Sensing Loop Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : post.thorcom.com ; SPF_helo = n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : btopenworld.com ; SPF_822_from = n Dear John, LF Group, In principle, either method ought to work. To relate the current in the "sensing" loop to the induced EMF (and therefore the flux) in the main loop, you need to know the mutual inductance M brtween the loops. Then the induced EMF is 2*pi*f*M*I, where I is the current in the sensing loop. In principle, this is easier if the sensing loop is a turn added to the main winding, since then the coupling factor k will be close to 1, and M = k*sqrt (L1*L2) where L1 and L2 are the inductances of the main and sensing loops. So if you know or can measure the loop inductances, you can calculate M. k will only be close to 1 if the turns of the main winding are not spaced apart too much. Using a smaller sensing loop has the advantage that it will have very little effect on the performance of the main loop. If the sense loop is a seperate smaller loop, you need to find the right formula to calculate M from the geometry of the loops. I have the re-print of Grover's "Inductance Calculations" (keep it on the bedside table...) which contains vast numbers of tables and formulae for different cases - I could probably find the appropriate calculation for you. It seems to be easiest to do this calculation if the loops are co-axial, co-planar and the same shape, so bear this in mind when designing the sensing loop! Alternatively, you could measure M by injecting a known current into the sensing loop and measuring the induced voltage in the main loop, e.g. with a selective voltmeter. This probably needs to be done at a relatively low frequency (VLF) in order to avoid the effects of the impedance and distributed capacitance of the multi-turn winding. The same applies to measuring the inductances; also if the sense loop is part of the main winding it will probably affect the tuning for the same reason - care would be needed to ensure the effect was the same when calibrating and in normal use. Methods that I have tried include comparing the loop output on a strong signal (e.g. DCF39) with a small single turn loop, and using Helmholz coil set-ups to produce a known magnetic field strength (only really practical for small loops!) I have used mainly single-turn loops for FS measurement, partly to avoid the distributed capacity issues - I have found a good technique is to use a "current transformer" to induce a known loop EMF. This can be a small ferrite toroidal transformer with, say, 20 or 50 turns or some convenient number that gives a high reactance, connected to a sig gen. The loop conductor passes through the core to form a single turn secondary. The secondary impedance is so low it doesn't significantly affect the loop, and the induced EMF is just the sig gen output divided by the turns ratio. I usually find this gives a result within a dB or so of other methods. With all these measurements, you have to take care that errors are not caused by stray coupling and ground loops between sig gen and receiver, or between the loop antenna and other antennas or long bits of wire. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU