X-GM-THRID: 1212409830910288796 X-Gmail-Labels: rsgb lf X-Gmail-Received: ec1281259a72464bb2778d09ef93d90f8a854082 Delivered-To: daveyxm@gmail.com Received: by 10.64.249.16 with SMTP id w16cs289063qbh; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.8.1 with SMTP id l1mr1827763nfi; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id c1si2234250nfe.2006.08.23.04.12.07; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (gmail.com: 193.82.116.20 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1GFqYK-0002E3-N5 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:05:44 +0100 Received: from [193.82.59.130] (helo=relay2.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1GFqYJ-0002Du-R1 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:05:43 +0100 Received: from pih-relay05.plus.net ([212.159.14.132]) by relay2.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.51) id 1GFqYF-0006rL-HB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:05:43 +0100 Received: from [212.159.90.113] (helo=Hugh) by pih-relay05.plus.net with smtp (Exim) id 1GFqY5-0001B7-JA for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:05:32 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c6c6a4$0aecdff0$1f03210a@Hugh> From: "Hugh_m0wye" To: References: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D06BF2D35@mail.dstl.gov.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:05:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,AWL=-0.039,HTML_40_50=0.086,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Alarming message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C6AC.5F8F9E00" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4458 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C6AC.5F8F9E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andy, I don't quite know where EMP crept into the discussion. Dick's original E-mail to this reflector was about a paper on Radiation = Belt Remediation. http://www.physics.otago.ac.nz/research/space/ag-24-2025.pdf This was suggesting using large amounts of VLF to "drain" the artifical = radiation belts produced by a High Altitude Nuclear Explosion.=20 The paper was suggesting that the radiation belts would damage low earth = orbit satelites - based on the observations of such damage found in the = 1960s. I quote ... "The effect of the Starfish Prime HANE on the radiation belts was = observed by multiple spacecraft. However, the intense artificial belts = injected by the HANE damaged 3 of the 5 satellites operating at the = time. Within a small number of days, data transmissions from the Ariel, = Transit IVB and TRAAC satellites became intermittent or ceased = altogether (Massey, 1964), primarily due to degrading solar cells. Other = effects were also noted even in this early case; the transistors flown = in the first active communications satellite, Telstar, failed due to = radiation exposure, even though the satellite was launched after the = Starfish Prime HANE." I was suggesting that modern semiconductor devices and circuit design = might be more immune to this kind of radiation damage, so the need for = "remediation" might not be as great as was suggested in the paper.=20 73 Hugh M0WYE ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Talbot Andrew=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:14 AM Subject: RE: LF: Re: Alarming message My understanding of EMP Nuclear bombs - gained from documentation from = the 1960s/70s, was that these were exo-atmospheric bursts designed to = generate huge impulses at the ground due to Compton scattering of = electrons blasted down from the upper atmosphere. Tests ( on BikiniAtol ?) caused severe disruption to electronic = equipment hundreds to thousands of km away, and are even reputed to have = knocked out streetlights at those sorts of distances. I don't see how satellites well above the atmosphere could be = disrupted by such an event. Direct satelite damage was very difficult = to produce then due to the difficulties of getting close enough - even a = 1MT bomb probably has to be within less than a kilometre of a satellite = for its direct radiation to be high enough to damage the electronics (no = blast damage in space !) Satellites are designed to withstand high = radiation levels from the sun. Rember the huge programme of Star Wars = started in the '80's. Nowadays such close positioning would be easier, = of course. So it looks as if satcoms would survive, whereas HF and ground based = electronics would not. SRI, fellow amateurs hoping for a return to HF! All info gained from open literature ;-) Andy G4JNT -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andre Kesteloot Sent: 22 August 2006 16:14 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Re: Alarming message Hugh_m0wye wrote:=20 3. The supposed disruption to satelites caused by a HANE seems to be = based on what happened to Telstar and similar vintage space-craft. = Surely satelite design has progressed since then, with better shielding = and "radiation hardened" devices being used. If satelites are more = robust then much of the reason for using RBR evaporates. It could be that the concerns may be over the possibility of a North = Korean missile sent in space to create an EMP and wiping out satellite = communications There is a difference between space equipment being = "radiation-hardened" against the radiations normally found in space, and = the neutrons. etc, that could be created by a nuclear device exploded in = space. 73 Andr=E9 N4ICK "The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent = correspondence" "is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s)." "For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, = distribution, " "or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such = information is" "prohibited and may be unlawful." ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C6AC.5F8F9E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Andy,

I don't quite know where = EMP crept into=20 the discussion.

Dick's original E-mail to = this reflector=20 was about a paper on Radiation Belt Remediation.

htt= p://www.physics.otago.ac.nz/research/space/ag-24-2025.pdf

This was suggesting using = large amounts=20 of VLF to "drain" the artifical radiation belts produced by a High=20 Altitude Nuclear Explosion.

The paper was suggesting = that the=20 radiation belts would damage low earth orbit satelites - based on the=20 observations of such damage found in the 1960s. I quote = ...

"The effect of the Starfish Prime HANE on the radiation = belts was=20 observed by multiple spacecraft. However, the intense artificial belts = injected=20 by the HANE damaged 3 of the 5 satellites operating at the time. Within = a small=20 number of days, data transmissions from the Ariel, Transit IVB and TRAAC = satellites became intermittent or ceased altogether (Massey, 1964), = primarily=20 due to degrading solar cells. Other effects were also noted even in this = early=20 case; the transistors flown in the first active communications = satellite,=20 Telstar, failed due to radiation exposure, even though the satellite was = launched after the Starfish Prime HANE."

I was suggesting that = modern=20 semiconductor devices and circuit design might be more immune to this = kind of=20 radiation damage, so the need for "remediation" might not be as great as = was=20 suggested in the paper.

73

Hugh M0WYE

 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Talbot Andrew
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, = 2006 10:14=20 AM
Subject: RE: LF: Re: Alarming=20 message

My understanding of EMP Nuclear bombs - = gained from=20 documentation from the 1960s/70s, was that these were exo-atmospheric = bursts=20 designed to generate huge impulses at the ground due to Compton = scattering of=20 electrons blasted down from the upper atmosphere.
 
Tests  ( on BikiniAtol ?) caused severe = disruption=20 to electronic equipment hundreds to thousands of km away, and are even = reputed=20 to have knocked out streetlights at those sorts of=20 distances.
 
I don't see how satellites well above the = atmosphere=20 could be disrupted by such an event.  Direct satelite damage was = very=20 difficult to produce then due to the difficulties of getting close = enough -=20 even a 1MT bomb probably has to be within less than a kilometre of a = satellite=20 for its direct radiation to be high enough to damage the electronics = (no blast=20 damage in space !)  Satellites are designed to withstand high = radiation=20 levels from the sun.   Rember the huge programme of = Star Wars=20 started in the '80's.  Nowadays such close positioning would = be=20 easier, of course.
 
So it looks as if satcoms would survive, = whereas HF and=20 ground based electronics would not.   SRI, fellow amateurs = hoping=20 for a return to HF!
 
All info gained from open literature=20 ;-)
 
Andy  G4JNT

 


From: = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andre=20 Kesteloot
Sent: 22 August 2006 16:14
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Alarming=20 message

Hugh_m0wye wrote:=20


3. The=20 supposed disruption to satelites caused by a HANE seems to be based = on what=20 happened to Telstar and similar vintage space-craft. Surely satelite = design=20 has progressed since then, with better shielding and "radiation = hardened"=20 devices being used. If satelites are more robust then much of the = reason for=20 using RBR evaporates.

It = could be=20 that the concerns may be over the possibility of a North Korean = missile sent=20 in space to create an EMP and wiping out satellite = communications
There is=20 a difference between space equipment being "radiation-hardened" = against the=20 radiations normally found in space, and the neutrons. etc, that could = be=20 created by a nuclear device exploded in = space.

73
Andr=E9 =20 N4ICK
"The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent=20 correspondence"
"is private and is intended solely for the intended = recipient(s)."
"For those other than the recipient any disclosure, = copying,=20 distribution, "
"or any action taken or omitted to be taken in = reliance on=20 such information is"
"prohibited and may be=20 unlawful."
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C6C6AC.5F8F9E00--