Return-Path: Received: (qmail 13414 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2002 20:12:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by exhibition.plus.net with SMTP; 3 Jan 2002 20:12:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 627 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2002 20:12:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 3 Jan 2002 20:12:37 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16ME9H-0001vh-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:07:35 +0000 Received: from mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.138]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16ME9F-0001vW-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:07:33 +0000 Received: from xtr743187 ([202.27.181.187]) by mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20020103200612.YBAC10687.mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz@xtr743187> for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:06:12 +1300 Message-ID: <000001c19492$b78b99c0$bbb51bca@xtr743187> From: "Vernall" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <169.68ea4ad.2964d7e6@aol.com> Subject: LF: Re: m-FSK: SNR vs bandwidth Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:54:30 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Happy New Year, I believe that Markus, DF6NM has made some salient points: > ...... The question for our weak-signal work is not so much how to > decrease the error rate of a strong signal, but rather whether we can > actually lower the threshold bit-energy below the noise energy (kT, equal to > noise-power per bandwidth). > > For m-ary FSK, the task of the receiver is simply to select the channel > having the highest energy (or the highest in-phase voltage for coherent > detection). The problem is that with more channels, the statistical > probability of noise in one of the many unwanted channels being stronger than > the signal channel becomes higher. To keep the error rate constant, you have > to spend a little more TX power. For large m, this logarithmic loss in > SNR-efficiency per symbol finally eats up the logarithmic increase of the > number of bits per symbol. > > Just have a look at one of the 7FSK screenshots with marginal signal: The > choice of selecting the "right one in a crowd of seven" is more difficult > than for a crowd of two. I have not been closely following the 7FSK discussion due to other calls on my time, but I have been generally sceptical that anything with more than binary coding is the way to go for amateur LF DX two-way contacts. So rather belatedly, I have some remarks on basic issues, stimulated by the comments from Markus: My understanding is that binary phase shift keying (BPSK) has the lowest detection threshold of any type of modulation and that ANY higher order scheme (intended to give an increase in spectral "efficiency" in terms of transmitted bits/second/Hz) accordingly has a penalty of less energy per bit for a given transmitter power, so the claim of "efficiency" has an overhead in needing higher RF signal to noise ratio at the receiver. A "binary" scheme is always a winner in terms of noise performance and of the various binary schemes, "phase shift" keying is the best performer. Differential BPSK (DBPSK) may have practical benefits that justify a small degradation in ultimate noise performance. For a given demodulated bit error ratio (and including using a visual display for operator assisted decoding), a higher RF signal to noise ratio is needed by any higher order modulation scheme. Amateurs have an eirp cap on radiated power, so there is a limit on how much the DX receiving situation can be improved in terms of "solving the problem by applying more transmitter power". For a two-way contact there is also the question of completing the QSO within the time of a propagation opening. Thus a deduction can be made as to the slowest bit rate needed to achieve the desired results. There may as well be pre-set options for bit rate, to facilitate local testing and for QSOs within a few hundred kilometres. The message content needs to be succinct so there needs to be good use made of prior agreed codes. Good coding is also part of the overall scheme. So in summary, I believe that extending LF DX achievements will be best served by developing a BPSK or DBPSK scheme. 73, Bob ZL2CA